Is there an 'underclass' on MN?

[wildswans]

I have name changed for this.

I have been on MN for about 6 months - off and on - and one of the most interesting aspects is the insight into people's lives and the contrasts and similarities. You can communicate with others you probably wouldn't meet in RL and in circumstances where they feel able to be completely open and frank about themselves, their families, their worries, their aspirations etc.

However, I can't help wondering if there is an 'underclass' who subscribe to MN. I have noticed, in particular, that any site which relates in any way to money or status - such as jobs and level of earnings and spending or whether a SAHM or WOHM - provokes very strong reactions. By this I don't just mean engaging in heated debate - which is part of the fun - but there is an undercurrent of envy and spite, which is very unattractive.

There are clearly a lot of high earning, highly successful women in MN and a number who have DHs who are well off. There are also lots who are earning less but do worthwhile and fulfilling jobs and others who are happy to care for their DC full time. Most MNs agree that it's all about choices and it doesn't really matter what you choose as long as it's right for you.

Yet the 'underclass' often seek to highjack interesting and constructive threads by pouring scorn on anyone who is a high earner, can afford tickets to the theatre (or even the zoo in one case!), or go on decent holidays. Presumably these are the ones who want the entrepreneurs to be taxed into exile and for a 'mansion tax' to be imposed. I can tell you that you don't get a 'mansion' for £2m in london or the South East, so what is that all about? In my view, it's nasty spiteful class envy and emanates from a small number of people on MNs who haven't achieved much in their lives so don't think anyone else should either.

Has anyone else reached this conclusion or AIBU?

i have an underclass support group in the basement of a church.

i post on mumsnet and tell people with money that their problems are not problems at all becuase they can afford a cleaner and buy wine over 4.99 which btw - they don't drink - they put in a 'rack' or some shit

please contact me at the following e-mail address for all your donations to the 'underclass'

[email protected]

but DP is a HT - he earns multiples of a teacher, because he has more skills - he can coach a failing teacher or an NQT, manage a team, deal with the council, budget etc etc etc etc AND teach that class.

Who works hardest, is very subjective. If you measure it in terms of work-life balance or whatever, LeQueen's husband may win.

If you measure it in terms of say, workplace injury risk (RSI, back injuries, joint problems, etc), someone else would win.

Or you could measure it in terms of benefit to society. I think that measure means teachers, nurses, etc win.

Or there's "well, I don't want to do that job, it looks too hard". Construction, working at the sewage plant (which is extremely beneficial to society, as well).

Le Queen - i just went to make a coffee, thought about my motivation, & your post was exactly what i thought.

plus - i like to lead people & do the best job i can.

benefit to society: entrepreneurs make a massive postive contributrion: create jobs, more people pay tax, innovation, new inventions, new products, etc.

OF COURSE it doesnt fit the fluffy definition of postive contributrion so gets ignored.

Tilly all you are doing is explaining why you earn more than a teacher in the current economic environment with your "added value multiples".

Everyone understands how market forces dictate pay, this is hardly what we are discussing!

Of course many rich people work very hard. As do many poor people. Tbh your apparent sense of entitlement and self satisfaction is hugely unattractive and you should not be suprised if it makes you unpopular either on internet forums or in RL.

If you would like to be paid above the average wage and also for people to doff their caps to you for being gracious enough to receive a high wage then it is your expectations that are the issue and not "the underclass" - who by implication should be happy with what they have (not) got as well as being happy wih what you conspicuously have got.

No wonder you have name changed for this thread

OP you are so NOT being unreasonable

See, more examples of subjectivity! We can't even agree on what should win, under particular measures!

So Tilly, why isn't your pay cheque enough for you?

I love the way people even lose sight of who the OP is, in their huffiness.

well its after wine o'clock on a Saturday night and one over entitled over earner blurs into another dontchaknow

Why has this moved into politics???

Wildswans I'm sorry, I'll stop it. The envy, snipey thing.

Because that's where many of the MN 'underclass' hang out

Oh dear, oh dear. Is wildswans one of the underclass of posters who think their own scorn is acceptable, but others' is nasty and spiteful and emanating only from those who have "never achieved anything" in life? Or if I read this entire thread, rather than just the OP, would I find pearls of wisdom from her?

meow.

was this originally on aibu? was quite impressed that someone asked that yet posted on politics

the beauty of mumsnet is that everyone and anyone can post on any topic they like, a bit like driving mumsnet is a great leveller

Wild Swans I'll tell you what we do. Last year we (largely due to DH) paid just over £250,000 in tax. I work full time in the public sector doing something to support those who started life, on the whole, incredibly deprived and what I do supports them having a second chance. My salary is 60% less than it was when I left the City in 1995 and I work just as hard and have more life experience.

DH is a key player in a professional business and is probably responsible directly for the jobs of four or five others. DH supports a scheme to get young people involved in sport, via a Community Policing Partnership and once a month gets them into a box at a London football club. This winter with my church I have been supporting a homeless project and have worked on it and cooked for it and helped host it. We also fund instruments and tuition via a small trust at our dc's old primary school for those who otherwise would not be able to afford it. We donate via direct debit to "The Alzheimer's Society", to another local charity which I will not name because it could out me, I have been a non exec director of a local health trust. I hope that will do for you for now but as you asked I thought I would let you know.

Many many people in similary circumstances as us live similarly, ie, they give a huge amount back and lead quiet and relatively modest lives which may be very very comfortable but which are neither glossy nor ostentatious.

married I think OP's question was more to those who would criticise the rich and naturally assume they don't give back. As I said earlier, I think there is a prevailing assumption that the rich don't have a social conscience, are just greedy and don't give anything back into society. Time and time again, people (like you) post to the contrary. I think that it is factually correct to say that in addition to contributing more 25% of the income taxes collected by the Exchequer, the top 1% earners are also the biggest cash donators to charity.

Married, you are an inspiration and have my total respect.

Novice of the Day - that is exactly my point.

It is the envy and 'rich bashing' vitriol which a minority show on this site - and it is a minority - which led to my initial post.

I wouldn't have used the word 'underclass' but I agree with the OP.

In the Real World I talk to my friends about our children eg how they are getting on with their music, when are they taking their next grade, where we are going for our holidays this summer etc etc.

But any talk of the above on MN will be met with accusations by some of boasting about yourself and/or your children. [rolls eyes]

I get it that there are people who are on low incomes. I get it that there are whose DCs arent doing too well at school. But why should we dumb down the conversation because it might touch a raw nerve? I'm a bit on the fat size but does that mean skinny MNetters are "twats" should they discuss slimming tips?

As I've said, I wouldnt have used the word 'underclass' but there is definitely a bunch of MNetters that will go into auto attack mode whenever the post is about other people's sucesses or that of their children.

haha I like your link Dilys

One thing that does disturb me, not so much with regard to the UK, but rather the US, is the apparent role of philanthropy in relation to tax for the top earners.

In the US, many people seem to be able to pretty much decide where they park their tithe. Fancy sending your kids to an exclusive private school? The fees are tax deductible. Same for Harvard and MIT. Fancy improving the medical care your family gets? Sit on the board of the local religious foundation hospital and make various tax-deductible donations. Need good tickets to the opera? Make a £100,000 annual donation to the Met (again, tax deductible) and sit on that board as well. Conscience pricking? Make a bit of a donation to a charidee or pay for an extra place at your child's private school for a Poor Unfortunate, and talk publicly about how you can offer so much LEVERAGE (aka investment or business advice) and how LEVERAGE is more important than the actual amount, or indeed even the time you give.

What you don't do is actually mix with the riff raff routinely or socially. God forbid. Because you are one of the anointed.

I think what disturbs me about philanthropy trends over here is that they are starting to go the way of the US, with select groups of people determining agendas and priorities, and deciding they are the only ones who Really Know How To Make Society Better. Because they only mix with each other and this is a self-perpetuating myth.

What is better is when people meet each other whilst using public services, or have mutual experience of benefiting from them (the NHS possibly being the best example), as well as living cheek by jowl where possible. There are fewer social divisions then and society is happier. This is what some of the more enlightened MNetters already do, and this is the way forward IMO.