To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

[lesley33]

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.

1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.

1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

I agree I think in a way if you are on a low income you are very lucky as you dont have to pay all your childcare costs. I prefer it to the stories I hear on here of people who have to pay it themselves as that must be so demoralising. I think its fantastic and even though I have to have it I hope my contribution through my work means I am putting my fair share back in to society.

I often think how lucky we are to get subsidised childcare as you dont get it in America.

Wbbley how do you think we deal with people in Tower hamlets choosing not to work while supporting people who have no choice?

Wubbly, of course you shouldnt be allowed a PC. Or any luxuries. Next they will be making us wear a black triangle I reckon.
Sick of Tory divide and rule while the RBS boss gets £900,000 bonus and the rich get richer.

Tilly, I don't know a soul in TH so I really don't have a clue. About as much use as a politician eh?

Wubbly read spuddy the career advisers post, if you have a mo please. Otherwise there's only us 'right wingers' as you see us commenting. And that's not really a debate is it?

I have read it. I'm reluctant to comment as I know nothing of the people who live in TH, the culture or the problems.

It is an area so completely outside of my experience that any opinion I have would be half arsed. I not prepared to do that.

Goodness i hope i'm not considered a right winger! i am an old fashioned socialist and i think support should be there until you don't need it. Which is why i have problems with people in council housing for the rest of their lives.

I have said before on MN my grandparents have worked and got a 4 bed council house after the war. Their children left 40 yrs ago yet they have been allowed to stay being subsidised. They could have easily lived without help, but they just expected to put their name down and get a house. When i was looking for a place to buy they were incredulous that i couldn't just put my name on a list and get something. No idea of why, but some people want everything to be arranged for them and have no choice. They saw my 'having' to decorate my home as a shame not really exciting and independent as i did. I am not right wing but i want people to take responsibility.

The young people we are churning out of our education are spoon fed and coddled every step of the way, so they are virtually unemployable. When i was a teacher i was horrified at how indulged young people were. It's the reason i left.

Very interesting from Spuddy & WF about Tower Hamlets. I'd like to add an anecdote from a town near me.

My Mum has always worked with children and teenagers with additional needs. One of her most frustraing cases was a girl who refused to take a job because she liked to meet her Dad "down the town" every morning. She was so brainwashed by the rest of her non working family she wouldn't contemplate a job. Her particular special need appeared to be her bone idle family.

In order to create that clear differentiation between the benefits of work vs. the benefits of welfare do you pay working people more or do you take from those on welfare? Because right now, what is making working people angry (and fearful that they are slipping) is not just that work does not really pay that much better compared to welfare, but that their work doesn't pay buttons compared to the work of many others who also work...

To choose not to raise the nmw and assume automatically this will mean fewer jobs is to choose to leave the sacred cow of the economy alone. British business, which benefits enormously from all the welfare and benefits because their availability means business can pay less to workers than what they should in a free market, secure in the knowledge that the taxpayer will make living in London for instance affordable (40% of people on HB) and therefore keep low paid workers available to work in a London area job.

Spuddy what do you mean about having to decorate your house as opposed to a council one? My grandparents added tens of thousands to the value of theirs over the decades that they lived in it and had no asset to leave their children.

Decorating isn't free if one is in social housing and neither is it subsidised.

WinterIsComing - I think my friend was given a set amount to redecorate her council house when she first moved in, and I don't think it was a loan

Sorry i didn't mean to say those in council properties would not do that (trying to cook dinner and post). Just that to my grandparents, they wanted it done for them and couldn't understand why anyone would 'want' to do it themselves. They had all their decorating done by the council. And my arse of a grandad reported anyone else to the council who decorated/modified theirs. Some people just want to be looked after. They feel secure that way.

I agree Math i worked on an internship scheme which let local TH businesses take on interns who were paid by the scheme. The amount of abuse this scheme saw at the hands of companies who just wanted free labour was disgraceful.

Companies mis sold roles as marketing but it was just cold calling sales. They offered a role at the end of the paid month but then withdrew it on spurious grounds. Some companies had up to 13 'interns' for a month which we paid £1000 each. So the companies got 13 months work for free.

Were they grateful? No most of them were incredibly rude shouting at us that it was their right to have grads for free, they were doing us the favour etc.

Private landlords are supposed to keep their properties in good decorative order, and typically redecorate when tenants are changing and not otherwise even if you've been there 10 years.

So it wouldn't be surprising for councils to redecorate on a similar schedule - or allow the tenants to do the work themselves while paying for the materials, which private landlords do too.

I suppose my point with my grandparents attitude was how much they pitied people who 'had' to do it rather than understanding the sense of pride of doing it yourselves (not that they specifically wanted the council to do it, but just anyone else).

I remember them saying it was such a shame i 'had' to go to university because i couldn't get benefits. It never occurred to them that i wanted to go. They thought learning was some kind of punishment and the only work they could understand anyone wanting to do was repetitive factory work - why would anyone want to learn new skills or have responsibility.

This was exactly the mentality of all the people i advised in croydon.

I moved into a one-bed council flat with DD when I had to sell my house and they did erm, do stuff to it such as rip out all the carpets and throw wads of stones and building rubbish onto the front garden when they replaced the kitchen. I was then threatened with eviction for not moving it. A lone parent to a two year old with no money or car

A nail maniac had lived there before so it all needed plastering and the shit brown and bottle green paint in all the other rooms was allowed to stand because the decorating budget had been spent on the cheapest shoddiest kitchen possible. I didn't have a choice and just had to get on with making it liveable.

Spuddy at your GPs! One of my fondest memories is of my grandmother bursting into proud tears at my graduation.

My point is there are groups of people who just don't aspire to the things others do. I have always been pitied for having a good job by my family and the students. The idea that just hoping that those in these groups will start aspiring to the same things as those others is ludicrous.

When i started doing widening participation into poor areas, i naively thought i would meet loads of urchins who just needed positive encouragement and a mentor. But i got a massive reality slap in the face. They didn't aspire to go to work, they mocked and pitied those who did. And it wasn't bravado, it was sheer disengagement.

I hear you, Spuddy. I once taught in a school in the worst housing estate in town. Seven year old children. Had eight years experience of them by this point and was astounded at the response to, "what do you want to be when you grow up?"

Blank looks all round. It had never occurred to them.

The brightest boy in the class did say that he would like to work in Asda because of the low prices. I could have cried.

Nodding in agreement here, spuddy, although my experience is nowhere near as extensive as yours.

I also had "But why would you go to uni for three years, you'll lose out on working and earning. I'm starting now working in the kitchen and by the time you graduate I'll be on my way to opening my own business."

People live in very different worlds, where they perceive and experience different rewards for nominally the same activity. And the social security system of the day is just one feature woven into that view. Ditto the education system - right down to secondary school for those who bunk off for more lucrative activities which may or may not be legal.

winter my favourite answer were the 15 yo girls who said 'famous or on benefits'. Same thing i suppose! I asked 'famous for what, writing, singing, acting, painting'? they looked blank and said 'no just famous', like i was an idiot.

i used to hate the secondary school merit system where i worked. The kids were cajoled into doing the bare minimum like write the title in an hour, then they would get a merit and praised. (this idea they would want more praise so would work harder was bollox). They would trundle out as if they had achieved something, because no one would tell them they hadn't.

They weren't being done any favours, by the time they left school they had an expectation that things would mould round them and they were unemployable. The education system set up what would continue for the rest of their lives - i felt very sorry for them.

I am totally in favour of the "principle" of Universal Credit - everyone gets the minimum. and state support reduces the more hours you work, allowing total flexibility without big penalty.... Re. the Op. I personally went back to work after ML as I was the main earner and we couldn't afford otherwise. My commute is 1.5 hours (at least) per day.

Dd is not and has not suffered due to this - though I appreciate I am VERY lucky that the Belgians keep their schools open for longer hours. I am a bit knackered but can live with that....

It does sound from some of the info above, that a large number of families living in Central London and hence affected by the cap - are non English speakers and hence unemployable basically. Well I agree with a cap, but to be honest a cap isn't going to solve THAT problem. Someone needs to be coming up with another idea!

Having read the whole thread, I don't see the intellectual angle that the million other threads didn't have. As usual some posters come on and bash those less fortunate. I would love to have a real debate showing how we can prevent children from becoming feckless adults by inspiring them and reduce the amount of people on benefits, by providing more support (redistribution of finances) to enable people to work while having other needs. And talking about how we can stimulate the economy enough to ensure that there are the jobs out there (not just temporary inconsistent posts) to make families gain secure employment.

That would be a sensible debate - this is just another bunfight about how bad benefit claimants are and it's so fucking depressing.

I feel so low about my own situation that MN used to be light relief. Most people in RL don't bash me but support me and know my situation is difficult. However on here Carers seem to be an easy target for the worlds problems. I just want to go back to work. I am so fucking sick of my life revolving around illness /medical appointments/ prescriptions/medication/night feeds. My phone contact list is like an NHS directory. And I don't want it anymore than you want to pay me to live like this. In fact I don't want it full stop. It's so crap just watching your child get ill, over and over again and just wanting it to stop. I can't cure him, but I give him a chance to live, and I save the NHS a lot of money by staying at home to care for him personally. Screw me and screw my mental health, I'm just benefit scum who should get a job on top of everything else.

I'd swap with any fucker in a heartbeat. I used to work long hours and loved it. Now I just care and some days, especially after reading this tripe, it feels like its draining the life from me. Ha! It's not my life anymore, it's been ages since anybody addressed me by my name and not just X's mum. Who said a job was fucking harder? Because whoever it was is lying.

reindeer
Sweetheart.
I know.
People just dont get it.
x

I don't want it anymore MrsDeVere. I am really worried about my MH. I can't do it, but I love DS too much to stop.

I think I need an MN break just until the siege of these threads stop.

Reindeer I am so sorry to hear that things are so difficult.
People don't have a clue do they.

But hold onto the fact that in RL people don't bash you, they see what you do day in day out and respect you for it.

To the keyboard warriors on here it's just a distraction, just a clash of cymbals and a way of feeling oh-so-clever for daring to swim against the tide, as they see it.
It's all hot air because if you haven't lived it, or haven't the empathy to imagine it, it's just empty.

All these bloody threads have reminded me of the quote (stalin?) 'A single death is a tragedy, a million just a statistic'