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Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

704 replies

lesley33 · 25/01/2012 12:02

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

  1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.
  1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.
  1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

OP posts:
Matches · 27/01/2012 21:32

I think people should be what they are without feeling the need to justify it or make a statement that - if put the other way round - would be jumped upon as being rude and snobbish Wink

SinicalSanta · 27/01/2012 21:41

I'm a part time worker married to a farmers son, from Connamara.

Alouisee · 27/01/2012 22:01

Need a Duchess to turn up and a fully fledged member of the Underclass then we'll have a full house.

BIWI · 27/01/2012 22:26

It's all ok mrsdv! We are who we are, and we are all as good as each other. I can't be doing with people who regard others differently because of their supposed class.

sunshineandbooks · 27/01/2012 22:28

Not quite sure where I fit in. Have attended both black-tie events and lock-ins at a local working men's club. I have friends from all walks of life in all classes, including wealthy landowners and benefit-dependent single mothers. Confused

I probably identify as working/lower middle if pushed. My parents were lower middle in the sense of being white collar, but both came from working class backgrounds. I was the first - and probably last (thanks to tuition fees) - in my family to go to university.

I've held a job continually since I was 13 and worked while getting my degree and masters. I've mostly done a series of dead-end NMW-type jonbs but also ran my own consultancy for a while and now work happily, full-time, for a lovely company on a middle-of-the-road salary.

Can't say I judge people on class or income. Decency, compassion, SOH and interesting personalities are what tend to do it for me.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 27/01/2012 22:29

I didnt want people to think I didnt like the Middle Classes nor nuffin.
Some of my best friends are middle class Grin

BIWI · 27/01/2012 23:52
Grin
Hecubasdaughter · 28/01/2012 06:23

Maybe I would count as underclass and I haven't set foot in London for at least 8 years. Now you just have to find a Duchess.

TheHumancatapult · 28/01/2012 07:19

Ah see money or lack of money does not dicate your class

I am by all apperances finacially and lifestyle underclass but am from a middle class background .So where would I fit .Am happy with spending time with people from either end of the scales and reckon i could quite comfortabley hold my own either way

sunshineandbooks · 28/01/2012 09:16

THC, there are loads of people on benefits like you. People who once had ordinary lives that the benefit bashers would 'approve' of but have ended up on benefits through circumstances - quite often ones they have no control over. Despite graduating top of my year, I'd have ended up there myself when I left my abusive XP if I hadn't had a financial cushion and an understanding boss. Without those two factors I'd have ended up on a housing waiting list with no form of income.

I don't know where this idea comes from that every person on benefits is a chain-smoking, plasma-TV-watching, piss-taking layabout who's never done a day's work in their lives. Well I do, it's the constant bombardment of articles about people like that in the likes of the DM, etc. Never mind these things are newsworthy because they are unusual. I guess people love to feel self-righteous.

TheHumancatapult · 28/01/2012 09:58

Sun shine

Mind I do sit on my arse all the time[ grin]

TheRealTillyMinto · 28/01/2012 10:41

Benefit basher on MN = someone who thinks the current system needs reviewing and disagrees with you.

molepom · 28/01/2012 10:47

I wondered where this thread went.

sunshineandbooks · 28/01/2012 10:54

No, Tilly. There are people on people on MN who argue that the system needs reforming and the welfare bill needs to come down without bashing those on benefits. I can think of a few off the top of my head.

These are the people who argue their point but want to know more about why people have concerns about the changes to what constitutes disability, etc. These are posters whose opinions I respect even if I disagree with them.

Benefit bashers are those who don't engage with any of the arguments put forward by those who oppose a cap etc and just repeatedly spew the same misinformation, prejudice and bile without recourse to any supporting evidence.

SinicalSanta · 28/01/2012 11:06

No Tilly that's too reductive, and you know it. Well you should after eleventy billion threads on the subject Grin

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 28/01/2012 11:21

I dont think even the most liberal, wishy washy amoungst us think that living on benefits as a lifestyle choice is ok.
I think we all know that there are a core of claiments who do not want to work and do not see why they should.

Despite evidence to show that it is the minority that abuse the system, that people will suffer from the WRB and that most people want to work

a benefit basher will continue to insist that the minority are the majority and that those who are genuine have nothing to fear. The worst of them will just shrug and mutter about collateral damage or that disabled people are a burden or that people should have been better organised so that death/disease/disability/divorce/voilence wouldnt be a problem.

It is this insistance that the country is full of plasma buying, pony riding, fag smoking, sleeve laughing benefit claiments that annoys and distresses.

It isnt.

There are some.

There are 'some' of everything. As has been said before, we dont frisk every body leaving Tescos because the rate of shoplifting is so high.

I doubt this post will make a whit of difference.
People think what they want to think for the reasons they want to think it.

TheRealTillyMinto · 28/01/2012 11:31

I completely agree the ' my neighbour has a pony' dont have a clue, as are a few people who say very strange, somewhat deranged things but I see far more reasonable arguments made than those. By posters responses to those arguments, the dont see the same thing in the same way.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 28/01/2012 11:49

People are scared tilly

Its a very precarious business having to rely on the government for your living.
I am quite sure that if they thought only the slackers and fakers would be affected they would be right behind the reforms.
I know I would.

But there is no way that this is going to happen. They are even reinventing the rules on what being disabled means.

Not that they are mopping up the slackness of a previous government that would give a free car to someone with dyslexia Hmm

They are asking people with degenerative conditions to prove that they havent got better. They are classing people with prosthetics as no longer mobility impaired.

I know this isnt just about disabiity but its all incuded in the WRB so it is relevant.

People will suffer and they are those that cant just pull themselves together and get any job to survive.

There are lot of people with absolutly no experience or conception of what life is really like for posters who are scared. That doesnt make them bad people and I do not resent their more comfortable lives. It does mean that they cannot really understand the situation.

We see a lot 'I dont mean people like you, I mean the ...' The WRB DOES mean people like us/them. Because it takes a bloody great massive mallet to smash a nut

Dawndonna · 28/01/2012 14:58

Great post, MrsDeVere

Alouisee · 28/01/2012 16:17

Caitlin Moran in The Times today writing about being brought up on benefits.

Dare me to c&p?

Alouisee · 28/01/2012 16:19

Caitlin Moran
January 28 2012 1:36PM
?What?s it like, being raised on benefits? Well, mainly, you?re scared?
Unlike most of the people voting on the proposed £18 billion cuts to the benefits budget ? as it shuttles between the Commons and the Lords ? I was raised on benefits. Disability benefits, collected every Tuesday from the post office, in a shuffling queue of limpers, coughers and people with their coat hoods pulled right up.
Perhaps if you drove past the queue, you would presume the ones hiding their faces were doing it because they were on the fiddle ? ?playing the books?. In reality, they were the scared kids with mental problems on Incapacity Benefit, whom you?d see trying three times, and ultimately failing, to get on a bus. Good luck with getting them on a Restart scheme, you would think. Good luck with trying to funnel that terror into a cardboard hat in McDonald?s.
A council estate on benefits isn?t what you think ? if you must imagine it, rather than remember, or just look out of the window. Popular imagination has it that it?s full of obese, tracksuit-wearing peasants smoking Rothmans on the front doorstep, rehearsing for their spot on Jeremy Kyle while spending their fraudulent benefits on a plasma TV.
Benefits spent on plasma TVs is the totemic fury-provoker of the professionally angry social commentator ? ?They?re spending YOUR taxes on A FORTY-TWO INCH SONY!!! You couldn?t MAKE IT UP!? ? ignoring the fact that if you live somewhere with broken-glass parks and looming teen-clusters on each street corner, and gave up on the idea of having a car or a holiday long, long ago, then staying at home, safe, together as a family, and watching 15 hours of TV a day is a peerlessly cost-effective, gentle and harmless way of trying to buy happiness.
Besides, they almost certainly won?t have spent ?your? taxes on it. They?ll have got a massive overdraft, like everyone else in the Western world. They?ll have got your telly the way you got your telly. People on benefits are just people ? on benefits. Some of them are dodgy, most of them are doing their best, and a few need more help than we could ever imagine. The mix is about the same as on your street. If you are having to imagine it ? rather than remember it, or look out of the window.
What?s it like, being on benefits? Being on disability benefits ? ?I?ve had a hard day?s limping, to put that tea on the table!? my dad would say, as we sat down to eat something based around a lot of potatoes and ketchup. Well, mainly, you?re scared. You?re scared that the benefits will be frozen, or cut, or done away with completely. I don?t remember an age where I wasn?t scared our benefits would be taken away. It was an anxiety that felt like a physical presence in my chest ? a small, black, eyeless insect that hung off my ribs. Every Tory budget that announced a freezing of benefits ? new means-testing, new grading ? made the insect drill its face into the bone. They froze benefits for four years in a row, as I recall: ?freezing? being the news?s way of telling you that you ? already poor ? will be at the checkout, apologising as you take jam and squash out of your bag, put them back on the shelves and ask them to add it up again. Every week you fear that this is the week the pennies won?t stretch any further and something will disappear: gas, food. Your home.
Eventually ? and presumably to the endless gratification of Richard Littlejohn ? they did take the telly away, halfway through Twin Peaks. All the kids cried and cried and cried. There wasn?t really anything left to do. I invented a game where you lay on the bed staring at the telegraph lines outside the house for so long, without blinking, that you would start crying. The house was very cold. Dad spent whole days in bed ? huge white plastic jar of painkillers on the floor beside him, looking like the New Shmoo.
All through history, those who can?t earn money have had to rely on mercy: fearful, changeable mercy, that can dissolve overnight if circumstances change, or opinions alter. Parish handouts, workhouses, almshouses ? ad hoc, makeshift solutions that make the helpless constantly re-audition in front of their benefactors, exhaustingly trying to re-invoke pity for a lifetime of bread and cheese.
That?s why the invention of the welfare state is one of the most glorious events in history: the moral equivalent of the Moon landings. Something not changeable, like mercy, but constant ? a right. Correct and efficient: disability benefit fraud is just 0.5 per cent. A system that allows dignity and certainty to lives otherwise chaotic with poverty and illness.
Certainty, that is, until you cut the budget so savagely that some benefits disappear altogether. Then, you bring back all the fear of the almshouse and the parish dole. Then, you cut this country back to Victorian times.
I remember it, from my childhood. I can feel the dreary terror from here.
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BIWI · 28/01/2012 17:31

Wow.

Certainly explains why people are frightened, doesn't it?

Thanks for posting, Alouisee.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 28/01/2012 19:28

One day, about 19 years ago, I went to the post office to pick up my supplementary benefit.

I had a job to go back to but was on extended, unpaid leave until I could get childcare for DD. OH had left me again. Back then you didnt get help with childcare and once you started work every single benefit stopped. There was no top ups. You worked or you were on benefits (THAT is a benefit trap).

Anyway I got to the top of the queue and they took my book off me. They told me that they had been told to remove it. So there was I with a recently weaned baby, no formula, no money, no food, no nappies - nothing.

Nothing because the £50 or so quid I got was always gone two days after I got it.
I got it, paid my little bit of rent and water rates, paid for tv licence stamps, phone stamps, topped up my lecky key and my gas key £5.00 each. Then I went shopping and bought food and nappies.

That left me with nothing until I picked up SB next week. I managed. I couldnt buy anything and if the baby lost a shoe I would cry because I had to wait until the next jumble sale (luckily there were loads in those pre carboot sale days).

The social had made a mistake but I was paying for it. The woman on the post office counter told me to leave when I cried and asked her what I should do.
I walked two miles with a crying baby to the hidious tower block in the Archway and waited for five hours to see someone.
They asked me if family could give me money. I said no I didnt have anyone to ask for money.

OH wasnt the man he is now, in fact he was an immature prick and I didnt even know where he was and his family wouldnt tell me.

They eventually agreed to send me a giro in the post.

I cant tell you how I got through those few days but I will never forget how alone, humilated and scared I was.

I know things have changed, benefits are different now. I doubt they have changed so very much.

Anyway - sob story and all that. But it happened and it was terrifying.

Alouisee · 28/01/2012 22:42

Same OH as now ?

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 28/01/2012 22:49

Yes.
But without the PTSD caused by Gulf War 1.