To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

[lesley33]

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.

1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.

1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

Dps has turned around a failing Lon primary and my info is from him. On average parents who dont work are more likely to keep their children off school so they lose on attendance. This is just on average so does not say anything about individuals. Also parental experience of school affecting expectations.

To those discussing the issues of Tower Hamlets, it's a really hard borough to crack. I have worked as an employment advisor there for recent graduates, previous to that i worked for unis/the nhs recruiting health workers from the Bengali and local communities. The borough has one of the largest divides of rich and poor. Canary wharf is in Tower Hamlets (my rent for a shoe box was £1300 per month! ) as it whitechapel, limehouse and mile end which are much less salubrious to say the least.

The issues i encountered were mainly cultural. Cultures where family and tradition was more important than work. Many young people would not travel if i found them work, because they wanted to be close to home (go home for lunch etc). I placed many who often called in sick for reasons such as taking their mum to the doctors, waiting with their family while their sister had a baby etc.

The young people and the parents who i met honestly believed it was their right not to take a job if the conditions were not perfectly fitted around their lives. Many felt they had choices; work or have benefits - both equal. When i was advising in Croydon - in a similarly family oriented area (new addington) they also felt the same way.

These are not particularly racial 'euphemisms' those in Tower Hamlets were predominantly Bengali but those in Croydon were white British. I have worked with other communities to and it iss an opinion i've found in most young people.

Also the culture of the city affects the local employment - how many people from whitechapel (born and bred) work in canary wharf (not including shop workers)?

UEL has a huge employability dept just trying to find the grads jobs.

If you attend school less you do less well.

spuddy what would change their mind to reduce welfare as a choice?

School attendance alone is rarely the single factor that affects performance.

Quite so I should have said on average

realtillyminto - Most people wont work unless there is significant difference between benefits and nmw wage. Most people in my area dont see the point as realistically there isnt much of one.

I hope spuddy comes back to respond because I'm really interested in her views. From my perspective, in response to Tilly's question, I strongly suspect for those with the intractable views spuddy described, the biggest factor which will get these people to choose work rather than benefits is externally imposed pressure- in the form of clearly having a better standard of living and clearly having more choices through working. If young People are raised within a culture of work taking second place to family issues, you're not going to be able to appeal to the 'work ethic' argument. And the converse is true- in a family where working is valued, the young people are more likely to work, even if it means a long commute, even if it means being no better off financially than benefits.

At the end of the day, what matters to

What matters to most people is seeing that working makes a tangible difference. If you can do things, go Places, buy things which you couldn't afford to do if you weren't working, more people would want to work. There just has to be greater differential between working (even in the lowest paid most menial job) and being jobless- otherwise you will never convince the most intractable people that work Pays.

I agree callmemrs me and DH work for the NMW or close to it and are no richer than any of our friends/people we know who are on benefits which tbf is most people as our estate is practically entirely workless households.

No one will do it though as they dont see the point. Even though the money is the same if I didnt work my mum and dad would kill me and DH if we went on benefits instead of working so I have internalised that message my whole life. Most other people I know look at it though as what is the point?

Like many working people who doesn't receive, and never has received, a penny in benefits other than child benefit, I am absolutely in favour of a welfare state to Protect those who genuinely need it. But many of the people who post on MN sadly do themselves no favours with their desperate 'justifications' for not being able to work, or their 'need' to not have benefits capped

Frankly, I suspect that the people we should be really concerned about are the ones not posting here- because they can't afford Internet access, pcs, or even the time to post during working hours!
What an incredibly blinkered and extraordinarily rude viewpoint.
Have no fear though, I have no intention of trying to justify my existence again, the drubbing, name calling and ill manners I have encountered here in the last week have put me off. So please, do continue, after all, if there is no-one left to defend, you've won, haven't you.

spuddy your opinion of TH accords with my own.
There are large numbers of people there who have absolutely no intention of ever coming off benefits if they can help it.

Frankly, a lot of them are working. Lots of guys signing on and working in their family's restaurants or cab firms. And lots of women and girls doing piece work at home.

And more still, surviving on their benefits, content to receive a roof over their heads and enough money for food. Aspirations for more are not common place. Certainly not high enough to work in one of the neighbouring boroughs every day. Which I always found incomprehensible considering how far their parents/grandparents had travelled to get here.

Yet I am about to be out of work and the benefits advisor has worked out I will lose £150 a month

I was on more than NMW (just) but will definitely be worse off until I find another job.

Which means you need to raise nmw or change the benefits system. Increasing nmw would reduce jobs in this climate so the choice is change the system. The alternative is having higher unemployment in Central london than Liverpool when people have family support, transport, social housing.

Not changing it means people chosing not to work and mr/ms average footing the bill.

well tilly for the areas i did the programmes in i think education would be a massive start.

I think as part of the curriculum some information explaining that benefits are their for those in need not those with choices. I remember being in schools and talking about jobs and the kids saying things like no, i'd rather have benefits, like it was an equal decision. They would say to me 'but miss you like to work so you do, but i don't, so i wont'. Even when the amount would be significantly less, because they also they hated being told what to do (an odd culture of 'respect') and getting out of bed.

The other thing was that they did not understand a work ethic, many parents had also never worked, in croydon they were 3rd generation unemployed. In tower hamlets the parents didn't speak English so needed their children to be with them for shopping/docs app etc.

The grads would laugh and say my mum and dad never wanted to speak English, so my sister (who went to uni for free) now doesn't work so she can look after them. They had, from the 60's lived in (very poor standard - i must add) housing and got everything they were entitled to. It had never been pitched at them that they weren't fully within their rights to have all this - so naturally they opted for it. No fault of theirs. iyswim

They are just happy with a lot less.

Dawndonna- it's not a blinkered viewpoint at all!! There are people out there who cant afford Internet access, pcs, travel to libraries with free Internet etc . And frankly I and many others have more sympathy with those People than with those who come on MN posting about how dire their circumstances are (yet not so dire that they can't afford Internet)!!

I have just calculated the cost of full time child care for dd 2, before and after school care for dd1, travel for DH and I to get to work based on both of us working 40hrs per week.. It came to £429.40 . Before I am flamed DH and I are both still job hunting.

word ah yes there is a lot of market trading in tower hamlets which isn't claimed. Which yet again comes from a cultural heritage of bangladesh, people picking up work here and there where they can, but to them that's normal. They think you are crazy if you tell them it's not.

I had one grad work for me who was running his own business on our time. He would sit at the desk typing up his stuff, printing etc, taking pens and things. When i asked him to do our work he would quite innocently say, when i've done this. He just couldn't see any issue. He was supposed to be promoting nursing in TH but at the same time he was getting back handers from locals for wheeling and dealing - very similar to when you travel to bangladesh, turkey, india etc. It is totally cultural. It is seen as stupid of you if you don't exploit every opportunity.

I agree with spuddy if most of your area is nmw or thereabouts then unless you have been brought up with a very strong work ethic the vast majority wont do it. There is nothing you can do about it and I dont think any of these changes will make the blindest bit of difference tbh

Dawndonna you save the country a fortune with the care you give your family. You should get a salary for it. But a twenty year olds in London chosing not to work is very different.

lol @ callmemrs. They don't confiscate your laptop when you're diagnosed with cancer you know?

Perhaps they should?

You'll be moaning about plasma screen TV's next and then we'll have house.

Sorry that's per week.

Talk about some posters completely going off the point lol

Hecubas- that sounds about right for 2 children. Its about equivalent to what we paid when we had two in childcare- actiallu when both were pre school it was more. If you're on low wages you'll get money towards it these days though . Be thankful for it- back in the day we all had to Pay 100%

Some posters? You mean me, so say it.

How am I off the point? You're suggesting that people have no right to complain of being skint if they've got a pc.

You're talking out of your arse. Just saying.