If there was an 'In/Out' referendum on Europe, how would you vote?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I've always been a pro-European and think that leaving the EU would present more problems than it would solve. But recent events have thrown up some fundamental questions that make me less confident in that opinion. Which way would you vote if a referendum was held and why?

You all seem to think that the money we pay towards Europe goes into some big black hole. Have you ever thought about how much we get back from Europe? No, I guess not, because the press is so europhobic it doesn't like us to know the good points.

I think that's a good point about the europhobic press. As a general supporter of the EU project I'm conscious that there are very few out there actively putting forward the benefits of membership. There's no opposite version of UKIP, for example, and the discussion tends to be very one-sided as a result. I think the commercial rationale which most people seem to be able to support has become overtaken in recent years by the superstate/common currency ambitions which is far more difficult to sell here than it seems to have been on the continent.

What is it exactly we get back?

As far as I understand it, a shed load of money gets wasted on the CAP. Something which everyone knows is unfair, costly and inefficient. Yet France flatly refuses to deal with this cos it's their gravy train.

The EU parliament is a monster with two heads. Literally. Brussels and Strasburg. And countless millions are wassted on shuffling people and documents between the two buildings when logic dictates you just have one place.

We now have an EU diplomatic core. Again why?

I believe the UK is a net contributor to Europe so the key question is not what they're doing for us but what value we're getting out of the money we're paying in.

So tell us PetitRaleuse; as I understand it we are net contributors - we don't get back much through the CAP; our fisheries are screwed.

The EU wastes money in moving the Parliament to Strasbourg each month; it has ploughed millions into the EEAS which doesn't seem to know its arse from its elbow; it pays huge per diem expenses to seconded national experts; it runs schools specifically for the children of it's fonctionnaires; it wasted money on silly vanity projects like cartoon book propaganda, cross channel cycle paths, and it still wants more money because the fonctionnaires et al want pay rises and the Belgian economy would probably collapse without all the EU money keeping it afloat.

Until the auditors sign off the EU accounts, then yes, I think it does go into a big black hole, because no-one has yet been able to see the accounts to prove otherwise.

In out in out shake it all about.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

What do we get back?

Hmm, where to start?

• Grants and funding for all manner of cultural or architeactural or heritage projects which local councils may not be able to afford to contribute to
• no war - only 60 years ago this seemed impossible
• the CAP is being reformed, and France's benefits from it are hugely exaggerated by the press
• You can go on holiday anywhere in Europe and get reasonably priced medical care if you need it. Yes you need top up insurance but nothing like what is needed if you go to the USA
• the possibility of freedom to trade across borders
• Thousands of Brits choose to live and work in Europe - we don't need anything more than a passport
• Europe is our largest export market. We leave and the whole system will change. Costing jobs, business, liveliehoods
• driving licences recognised across the EU
• All kinds of common policies for the environment, conservation, human rights and working conditions that we now take for granted but could and often would be reversed if we left
• the European Court of Human Rights is a great institution despite what you might read in the Daily Mail
• mobility for career professsionals
• Our economy has been boosted by economic migrants from other EU countries, despite what you read in th epress
• Europol

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You might think that if we left we could keep some of this but in reality it will all be jeapordised - we can't just pick and choose our conditions of what we keep. And there will be no-one to protect British workers and our human rights. Do you really trust the Tories for example to look after the interests of the working people? I don't.

So let's just think - what would we stand to lose from leaving the EU and you'll find the list is a hell of a lot longer than you think.

Oh, and there are fewer people employed by EU institustions than by many large companies including, until recently, the BBC.

scaryteacher are you saying the EU's accounts aren't audited?

That'll come as a surprise to the EU Court of Auditors based in Luxembourg.

yes I agree that the EU is okay as a common market for trade and I believe that is what people originally voted for in the 70's but not how it is now.

I believe there is a problem with the accounting too and money disappearing into a black hole.

We also do everything by the book here whereas other countries do their own thing and ignore the EU regulations more.

Also didn't NL give away our rebate so more money down the drain.

This is interesting.

alemci the auditors are independent, there is no black hole this is a press myth.

And actually we are not the only ones that do things by the books it's a question of interpretation of the rules and it is easy for people to blame rules on the EU just like they do for Health and Safety. It's BS, in other words.

'The European court of human rights is a great institution'

germany is in the eu, and they are by far not as anal about health and safety there...

And my point is proven about the europhobic press.

Anyway, no point in banging head against desk the Europhobes already have their minds made up

Exactly: in the UK they make up petty rules and blame it on the EU and H&S. It is not the EU or H&S imposing stuff on people. It's a scapegoat. But people in the UK seem to believe what they are told.

'no war - only 60 years ago this seemed impossible' and NATO would have nothing to do with this? It's NATO that has prevented war, not the EU.

CAP reform - oh when? I knew Blair had signed away our rebate for CAP reform, but quel surprise, nothing happened.

You get travel insurance to pay for medical care abroad if you need it.

We've always traded across borders - the staple sold much of the English wool to the merchants of Flanders back in the Middle Ages; again pre EU.

We do need more than a passport to live in Europe - you need proof of financial support; you need to have an ID card for where you live (at least I do) and in some cases argue your right to be there.

Europe needn't cease to be our largest market, as we trade with the individual countries, rather than the EU as an entity.

I think we might do better in fisheries for example if we didn't have common policies; I am unconvinced about the ECHR and the working conditions policies like the working time directive often stifle industry, not encourage it.

You have mobility for career professionals outside the EU as well, so again, that doesn't stand up.

As for human rights - I trust the UK to look after my human rights far more than I do the EU, and I don't think that the EU does protect British workers in particular.

The EU bureaucracy is too big, opaque and unwieldy. It is undemocratic and unnecessary.

"We do need more than a passport to live in Europe - you need proof of financial support; you need to have an ID card for where you live (at least I do) and in some cases argue your right to be there. "

Really? In France they abolished the need for a carte de séjour years ago and that was to do with EU laws.

PetiteRaleuse - I live in Belgium, 20 minutes from the EU quarter. My dh did almost 3 years with the EU as an SNE. He was appalled by the waste both in time and money. He is an intelligent professional. Go figure, and don't believe everything you read in the Europhile press. People can have an opinion on the EU that is based in fact not the press, and that opinion can be anti EU.

I didn't say that the EU accounts aren't audited - I said that they hadn't been signed off, ie. the audit was unsatisfactory.

France does not as far as I know constitute the entirety of the EU, so there will be differences in what proof one has to provide to be allowed to reside in each country.

There's really no need to be patronising. I used France as an example. Others would be Germany, the UK, Luxembourg, etc etc etc.

I'm sorry I don't know what an SNE is.

Seconded National Expert.

I wasn't being patronising - you only mentioned France - as I pointed out there are other member states apart from France.

In Belgium one has to prove that you have enough money/salary to not be a burden on the state; provide birth certificates/marriage certificates to get your Gemeente/Commune card, and the police come to check you live where you say. If your status changes i.e you get diplomatic status, then the status of the trailing spouse is supposed to change, and if it doesn't, then you are queried on what your right is to stay in Belgium.

Petite, I think it comes back to our expectations of what the EU should be. Most of the benefits you quote are perfectly feasible without the wastage and duplication we currently have.

In addition there is a definite march towards a single federal superstate and the usurping of national powers.

Now we may decide as a nation to pursue that, we may not. My view is that we need a referendum at some point to decide but now is not the right time.

Scary OK thanks - I was thinking in Mumsnet acronyms so got a little confused.

It used to be like that in France and they changed it because of the EU relaxation f immigration laws between EU member states. I'm surprised Belgium still do it the old way but I guess that's their prerogative (ya see, country's can still do things how they want )

I agree that the EU is no longer what it set out to be, and that things could be maintained without the system we have in place. BUT in practice I doubt this would happen. We can't just pick and choose the good bits to keep.

I think in practice that change has to happen; people are not happy about being ridden over roughshod with the referendums (wrong answer, vote again), and with the fissures in the euro showing, we can either push for change and get what the UK needs, or wait for it all to implode and pick the pieces up afterwards.

If the EU sees the UK as a stumbling block, the wouldn't they be happy to let us out (not that they could stop us) and give us the kind of agreement that Denmark currently has (but that may change with Mrs Kinnock as the new PM) and that Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Switzerland has.

PetiteRaleuse

- Grants and funding for all manner of cultural or architeactural or heritage projects which local councils may not be able to afford to contribute to
Britain contributes approximately £14 Billion a year, from this approximately £6 Billion is returned to Britain in the form of grants etc, £8 Billion is never seen again. We could leave the EU, still spend the money that the EU returns to us AND be £8 Billion better off. Alternatively (and just for fun), we could ask the question, "how many of these projects could we live without" and save the whole £14 Billion.

- no war - only 60 years ago this seemed impossible
As mentioned elsewhere, NATO was instrumental in this, as was the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction.

- the CAP is being reformed, and France's benefits from it are hugely exaggerated by the press
If the CAP (and similar agricultural protection systems across the developed world) was abandoned, there would be a huge incentive for areas in other parts of the world (namely Sub-Saharan Africa) to develop their land and produce food (most notably wheat and meat) for export. South Africa does this, Zimbabwe (prior to that nob-head Mugabe) used to do this. There is enough land in Africa to make this possible and the trickle down of money would improve Africa?s woeful infrastructure. If Africa could produce food as intensively as France, Ukraine or Ohio, they would be a lot more capable of preventing famines. All it would take for Africa to lift itself up is the motivation of capitalism. It may seem overdramatic to say this but I have argued for years that you can either have the CAP or starving Africans - you can't have both.

- You can go on holiday anywhere in Europe and get reasonably priced medical care if you need it. Yes you need top up insurance but nothing like what is needed if you go to the USA
People used to go on holiday before the old EEC morphed into the EU. Britain?s EHIC is recognised by many non-EU countries such as Switzerland.

- the possibility of freedom to trade across borders
Someone else mentioned that Britain has been trading with Europe since the middle ages.

- Thousands of Brits choose to live and work in Europe - we don't need anything more than a passport
There is no reason why this would need to change because we could sign a sovereign treaty with the EU that allows this very thing. I also happen to think that this is a brilliant system but it doesn't require us to be subservient to Brussels for it to work.

- Europe is our largest export market. We leave and the whole system will change. Costing jobs, business, liveliehoods
I was reading somewhere (I can't find where unfortunately) the other day that only around 5% of our total economy is concerned with exporting goods to the EU. There was a similar proportion of our economy made from importing goods from the EU. The vast bulk of our economy (around 80% IIRC) was concerned with British people providing goods and services to other British people. Why does the whole of our economy have to play by the EU's rules when so few people are directly involved with dealing with it?

- driving licences recognised across the EU
always were, always will be. Haven't you seen the Italian Job!

- All kinds of common policies for the environment, conservation, human rights and working conditions that we now take for granted but could and often would be reversed if we left
If they are sensible we can copy them and implement them under a British parliament. Nobody accuses the Swiss or the Norwegians of being environmental terrorists or of having poor workers rights - it is possible to have good laws despite being outside the EU.

- the European Court of Human Rights is a great institution despite what you might read in the Daily Mail
I won't argue that one - let's just agree to disagree.

- mobility for career professionals
See above for your earlier point about Brits working abroad.

- Our economy has been boosted by economic migrants from other EU countries, despite what you read in the press
This is merely the flip side of the point made earlier.

- Europol
Ah yes, that peculiar 'right' for British citizens to be extradited to face charges for 'crimes' that aren't recognised as crimes in the UK.

Maybe becaue that's not what we signed up to? We can't just be a fairweather friend. I'm not sure thta's the right term but YKWIM.