If there was an 'In/Out' referendum on Europe, how would you vote?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I've always been a pro-European and think that leaving the EU would present more problems than it would solve. But recent events have thrown up some fundamental questions that make me less confident in that opinion. Which way would you vote if a referendum was held and why?

[rycooler]

Oh well - at least Tory MP's have a backbone and know what democracy actually means - unlike Labour and the LibDems -

Cameron - you're a traitor to your party. Fuck off.

[niceguy2]

What do those who think we should leave the EU think will happen in the short term?

The markets would have another confidence crisis as it would appear the EU is breaking up. This means shares plummet, confidence plummets and people end up losing their jobs. Is that a price worth paying do you think?

In addition, it's worth remembering that UK no longer has any sort of empire and our economic power is waning every year as giants like China, India & Brazil are growing. As such our world influence also wanes and the only reason we're still part of the G7 & have permanent membership of the UN Security council is because of our history. If we leave the EU we're relegating ourselves to relative obscurity on the world stage. Depends if you think that's a good thing or bad.

[OTheHugeWerewolef]

I have to say that if even William Hague, who has a long history as a pretty solid Eurosceptic, is saying 'Repatriate powers, but now is not the time to try and leave' then I'm minded to take him seriously.

As the old saying goes, 'Politics is the art of the possible', and if the Government is using the eurozone crisis and the prospect of a renegotiated EU treaty as an opportunity to take back powers - and actually succeeds in doing so - then I'll rate that as a success of sorts. I think a pretty high proportion of UK voters would turn out for a Europe referendum, but the political and possibly economic consequences would be far-reaching. And given that the whole European project is on the verge of imploding right now, adding that to the mix just wouldnt' be wise.

niceguy I have to say I'm not fussed about relative obscurity on the world stage. It seems to me that most of the biggest wastes of UK time and resources, not to mention generators of terrorist activity, centre around the UK refusing to admit we don't have an empire any more, and compensating by 'punching above our weight' in foreign conflicts and prancing about as though we still had a casting vote in the direction of world history.

You don't see Switzerland, a relatively obscure country, haemorrhaging money in unwinnable wars in Afghanistan. And yet Switzerland manages to be a perfectly pleasant place to live. I think we in England need to get over our recent past and bite down on how inconsequential the country is now. We spend a fortune subsidising our delusions as things stand, and as far as I can make out much of the rest of the world looks on with amusement.

[TheBrideofFrankenstein]

I'm inclined to agree with Werewolef. I have a feeling that "firmly behind the parapet" is the place to be for the next 50 yrs or so. On that basis, the waning influence of the UK, which I think is a perfectly natural consequence of the economic development of the world, may not be a bad thing. In fact it might be a good thing.

However, also agree that it's stupid to leave the EU basically in a strop without looking at it on a completely balanced view and that the ST repurcussions will be seriously ugly

[Dahut]

Thinking we can stay in the common market and leave the EU is fantasy. You can't renegotiate terms with the EU, you either stay in or leave and cripple British exports.

[OhBuggerandArse]

There's a lot that needs to be sorted out about the EU, but I think we'd be infinitely better off taking as active a role as we can to do that sorting out and staying in.

Apart from anything else I think we need to keep very firm hold of anything that gives us a route into global political activity that isn't tied to the US and its frankly horrifying approach to foreign policy.

[MrPants]

Dahut, don't forget that Europe also benefits from free trade with Britain. It is as much in their interests to keep tariff free borders as it is in our interests to.

Norway and Switzerland, as mentioned earlier, manage to be part of a free trade area without losing any national sovereignty. I believe that that is the relationship which Britain needs to develop.

[rycooler]

niceguy2 - Leaving the EU may well have short term complications - but it's our long term future that's important. People are sick of being governed by faceless politicians in Brussels - who voted for them? How many ordinary people even know who the president of the EU is?
We should be given a referendum with the pros and cons of being in the EU set out in layman's terms, let the people decide.
Too many Tory MP's went against Cameron for this issue to go away ( it won't )

[OhBuggerandArse]

But isn't the answer to the 'who voted for them' question for us all to get more involved in Euro politics, especially elections? That's at least partly a failure on the part of political parties here to campaign visibly on Euro issues and for Euro elections - I can't remember the last time that happened. It's as if they're too frightened of raising the subject. If we had a greater sense of ownership of our Euro MPs, and saw them active in the media and in creating the stories about the EU, as opposed to just getting Westminster politicians grandstanding, we might feel less alienated and helpless about what the EU is actually doing.

[rycooler]

Absolutely - but let's decide if we want to be there in the first place - if we do then great, we get more involved, but I'm pretty sure most people would want out.

And respect to the Labour MP's who voted for a referendum - Kate, I adore you.

[niceguy2]

Werewolf, personally I completely agree with you. I actually think it's high time we gave up the pretense of being a "world player" and be more focused on domestic affairs. I put that paragraph because it's something worth thinking about.

Rycooler, on the whole I agree with you. It's the long term which counts but when your economy is flatlined, do you really then rush out and do something which will make it worse now when you can easily wait a few years and look at it then?

We're talking about a referendum and the results of which are far from a forgone conclusion. However, timing is everything and whilst personally I do question the value of the current incarnation of the EU, the timing is all wrong. The uncertainty would make things worse.

Come back in a few years when the dust has settled and I'll be all for a referendum.

[scaryteacher]

Ry - there isn't a President of the EU.

You have:
a president of the European Council (Van Rompuy)
a president of the European Commission (Barroso)
a president of the Council of the European Union (rotates between member states)

All drawing nice salaries and expenses (and don't forget the pensions).

Ashton was a political appointment and she is out of her depth. We don't vote for any of them.

If you want an MEP who makes a noise OhBugger may I recommend Dan Hannan in the DT? You'll get more of the reality there, as opposed to the crap that normally comes out of Brussels. The money that is wasted here is appalling and we are all paying for it.

[rycooler]

Well they you go - even more confusing.

[PetiteRaleuse]

IN. The consequences of leaving would be too huge. Don't believe everything you read in the europhobic press.

[rycooler]

How many people could name any of them?

Not many.

[worldgonecrazy]

I would vote out. I love Europe, and many Europeans, but I think that pushing for a common market and trading treaties is the thing to do. I definitely do not agree with a European State and am anti-federalist.

However, I do know that the European Union will not go without a fight and has such an influence already that there is no way that the British would be allowed a referendum unless we voted the 'right' way. The Irish tried twice to have a free vote but voted the wrong way, and therefore had to vote again until they voted the 'right way'.

[niceguy2]

Exactly Worldgonecrazy. The EU as a common market with no trade barriers, I fully support.

The EU as some sort of super state like the USA, no. Not because I worry about some federal superstate. But simply because economically and politically we're too far apart from the other EU countries.

So I think we should indeed to to renegotiate or membership and as a nation decide if we want in/out. But now is not the right time.

[OhBuggerandArse]

ooh no, scaryteacher, I don't like the look of him (Daniel Hannan). Atlanticist anti-NHS minor public school boys are not the answer.

[TheBrideofFrankenstein]

The EU as a common market with no trade barriers, I fully support.

I think everyone does, and it never should have become anything more than that. Current situation is beyond farcical. Just when we need to be a lean, mean, fighting machine we're a flabby, indecisive, blob of bureaucracy with the turning speed of a supertanker

[rycooler]

never thought I'd have a laugh on this thread... [ lean mean fighting machine ]

[TheBrideofFrankenstein]

.ahem.......in the economic sense of the word, obviously

[glasnost]

Rest assured little Englanders if Europe were to hold a referendum on whether to have you in it they'd vote non, nien and no!

Perfidious Albion indeed.

[rycooler]

Actually - I made myself laugh on this thread -

'I bet no one knows who the president of the EU is'

No, because there isn't one >

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I think the 'nein, non, no' camp would quickly miss our £4.7bn contribs, or whatever it is these days...