If there was an 'In/Out' referendum on Europe, how would you vote?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I've always been a pro-European and think that leaving the EU would present more problems than it would solve. But recent events have thrown up some fundamental questions that make me less confident in that opinion. Which way would you vote if a referendum was held and why?

[AVoidkaTheKillerZombies]

In.

[claig]

Don't forget that De Gaulle never wanted us in. We wanted to join.

Also why do all the mainstream parties want to remain in, and why don't they grant a referendum?

Qu'est-ce qui se passe? Zut alors! Qu'est-ce qu'il ya derriere?
What's behind it all?

There is nothing wrong with the CAP. It is to keep farmers in business, so that in emergencies Europe will be self-sufficient in food production and will be able to feed its people. The Africans should also have a CAP, to pay their farmers to stock food for teh African population.

[PetiteRaleuse]

MrPants I'm not going to argue each of your points (am running out of energy) but I do take issue with your CAP point. I would much rather that EU agriculture be boosted than African agriculture. This is not through not caring about their economy but more from an environmental concern. I like to buy local. We import enough from far too far away.

As far as the other 'no reason to change the good bits' arguements, as I said before in practice it would change, and I don't trust for example the Tories to not amend the employment and human rights legislation.

My other argument is that we will lose the respect, politically, of our neighbours. Who are far more important to us than the US who ride roughshod over us whether we do what they want or not. Leaving the EU would reinforce the opinion from abroad that we are xenophobic little Englanders who want to stay on our island and shut out the rest of the world.

You might not care how we are regarded by others, but politically we will be out in the cold. This could not be a good thing.

[PetiteRaleuse]

claig I think because they see beyond the crap printed in the UK newspapers and see the bigger picture (god I hate that term)

Good point on self sufficiency.

[claig]

Who would be against self-sufficiency and why? Would it be the globalisation supporters, who would have us interdependent instead of independent? What would happen in a war, as when Britain was blockaded by the U boats, and when some parts of the country were close to starvation?

The French are smart, they are chauvinists, they are pro their own nation and interests. They want their farmers to survive, so that they can feed their people, and the rest of Europe's people.

But, the EU is a giant that slowly removes countries' independence and lessens the democratic control of the people in each country. So why are all the leaders and parties in favour of it?

[PetiteRaleuse]

Well the UK is a long way from being self sufficient. And you can't blame the EU for that.

[claig]

Why is it the right who are more against EU integration than the left?

Is the EU socialist? Is it international socialist? Is that why democracy and independence come second to integration, interdependence and central planning by the committee?

Is the EU for the people or for the politicians, business and the elites?

[claig]

'Well the UK is a long way from being self sufficient. And you can't blame the EU for that.'

Agree. The UK is all for globalisation and interdependence. The French much less so.

[claig]

Was Margaret Hilda Thatcher right, when she said

"No, Mr Delors. We shall not have socialism by the back door"

[claig]

That's why the French are lways attacked in our newspapers. They actually dare to stand up for their own country and their own interests. That's not very social, socialist or communautaire. How on earth will globalisation and central planning work if countries want to do their own thing? The French don't seem to be playing ball. That's why they are the brunt of the newspapers' ire.

[scaryteacher]

The French are attacked in our newspapers out of habit really. We've been doing it for centuries.

The French are for interdependence, as long as Germany is paying for it!

In answer to your question Claig, the EU is for the politicians, and the elites, and yes, Mrs T was right, as she often was.

[claig]

Yes, the German people pay for everything. But, of course, the German politicians don't care. When did the people ever count? That would be democracy and that would mean referenda and being asked.

Could it be that the elites have engineered the euro crisis in order to force through a fiscal union - a union that of course the people will not be asked to vote on. Will the result of the fiscal union just increae further the grip of the elites on European countries' finances and budgets and policies?

Welcome to globalisation and the Central Committee.

[claig]

But the people will grow to love their servitude, because the Central Committee will tell them that the Committee intends to "save the planet" for them - but unfortunately that means the people will have to pay even more, because their lifestyles and living standarsd are no longer "sustainable".

[WetAugust]

I have never heard any good reason for being IN.

[niceguy2]

France is the country we love to hate but when push comes to shove, they are our staunch allies. Back when it all kicked off with the Falkland's, the US were on the fence but the French had our backs.

As for CAP, I'm all for self sufficiency but at the moment we're paying farmers way too much. They produce mountains of unwanted food so what was the answer....to pay them not to produce. What sort of nonsense is that in a free market economy!?!?

[WetAugust]

France is the country we love to hate but when push comes to shove, they are our staunch allies

and then you go on to mention the Falklands.

I don't know how old you are but if you're in my age group who remembers the Falklands very vividly as an adult you will know that the HMS Sheffiled was unk by an Exocet missle (French) and that France did not put an embargo on resupply to Argentina.

You may also remember that just prior to the Falklands War we had contracted to sell one of our aircraft carriers to New Zealand. When war broke out New Zealand permitted us to retain that ship to assist our war effort.

The Falklands taught us where our true allies lay and they were in the Commonwealth - not our European competitors.

It's a well known fact in Defence that the french are not to be trusted.

[claig]

'They produce mountains of unwanted food so what was the answer....to pay them not to produce. What sort of nonsense is that in a free market economy!?!?'

That is a subsidy to keep the farmers in business. All of us and the farmers too paid a huge subsidy to keep the banks in business. The cost of keeping farmers in business is much less.

It is a myth that the market is running everything. The government subsidises railways and energy etc.

[claig]

I think that niceguy may be right about the French helping us during the Falklands War. I remember seeing a History Channel documentary where they said that the French gave us the codes for the Exocet.

This is from wikipedia

'Actions were taken to contain the Exocet threat. During the preparation for the war Britain benefited from the help of France, which gave the Exocet's code and homing radar.[16] A major intelligence operation was also initiated to prevent the Argentine Navy from acquiring more on the international market.[17] The operation included British intelligence agents claiming to be arms dealers able to supply large numbers of Exocet to Argentina, who diverted Argentina from pursuing sources which could genuinely supply a few missiles. France denied deliveries of Exocet AM39s purchased by Peru to avoid the possibility of them getting to Argentina'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet

[maighdlin]

IN the effect of the UK leaving the EU would probably destroy it and our own economy, now is not the time. Plus I wouldn't give the daily mail and its readers the satisfaction who have no clue about human rights and go on and on about the "foreigners taking our jobs" and wonky bananas.

[WetAugust]

History re-written by the ultra reliable Wikipedia contributor.

Remember the Gulf War when our EU partners competitors, Belgium, refused to supply us with ammunition?

[claig]

Does the Daily Telegraph rewrite history too?

'FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.'

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1387576/How-France-helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html

There is a lot of misrepresentation of France. They can't be as bad as they are made out if we are sharing aircraft carriers, and remember even Churchill once talked of a union between France an Britain.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/02/britain-france-landmark-50-year-defence-deal

[WetAugust]

Hmmm John Knott. The Defence Minister that took his eye off the ball and proposed scrapping the South Atlantic patrol ship HMS Endurance which the Argentinians mistakenly supposed signalled that we wouldn't be too fussed if they took over the Falklands.
At least Maggie made him sit tight in the shit he had created before sacking him when it was over. Bit telling that he never made it to the Lords.

Not a great believer in Knott's judgement or perception of how things were.

If we had these codes supplied by te French how come we allowed Exocets to sink the Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor and damage the other ships?

[claig]

The radar on HMS Sheffield was not fully operational and they were not warned about teh Exocet which had been picked up by other radar.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/sep/26/falklands.world

[PetiteRaleuse]

There is far to much BS out there about the French.

"It is a well known fact in defense that the French are not to be trusted". A fact? Sounds more like an opinion to me and in fact I have never seen anything to prove it (at least not in modern times).

The frog bashing is, in the main, one-sided. I know the Brits like to think that it's all jolly good fun and the frogs are just as mean to us but in fact they aren't. Until very recently the French openly admired us for all manner of things.

In the last year or so the tide is turning as far as I can see. I'd guess that would be round about when the Tories got back in and they saw the horrendous coalition policies. Because from abroad, the view is not a pretty one.

But anyway the comment I have quoted above pretty much shows why there is no point arguing the cause for the EU with small minded xenophobic little Britons.

Oh, and WetAugust the joy of the EU is that we don't have to agree on military things. If the Belgians are against a war why should they be forced to sell us amunition? Can you imagine if the US invaded Iran for example and we were forced to sell ammunition? Oh wait, sorry. Of course. We'd be standing shoulder to shoulder and sending our people off to be killed unecessarily. Bad example. We'd probably also sack most of our defence staff and make cuts in the army. Just to back up our case.

[claig]

Agree with PetiteRaleuse. The same opinions are often said about the Germans, the Italians, Sarah Palin and everyone else.

I think it is done deliberately in order to fool the public. It's part of divide and rule. It's like Labour who tell us that we have the best health service in the world, while we hear stories of elderly people being dehydrated and not fed. It stops us looking at reality and demanding change.