If there was an 'In/Out' referendum on Europe, how would you vote?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I've always been a pro-European and think that leaving the EU would present more problems than it would solve. But recent events have thrown up some fundamental questions that make me less confident in that opinion. Which way would you vote if a referendum was held and why?

[scaryteacher]

'Oh, and WetAugust the joy of the EU is that we don't have to agree on military things.' A common misconception is that the EU has anything to do with defence - it doesn't. It would like to, and pretends to, but actually, defence wise, NATO is the driver, not the EU. Belgium is a member of NATO as are we, and Belgium should therefore have supported us as a member of NATO.

I disagree about the view from abroad not being a pretty one - I think it is good that the EU is again being challenged and examined. Hopefully Cameron will not be rolling over to have his tummy tickled like Blair and Brown did, and there are enough Eurosceptics about to give him pause. The reason that twit Clegg is so Europhile is that he would lose his EU pension if he did anything contrary to the interests of the EU, and if that isn't fifth column (along with Mandelson and the Kinnocks), I don't know what is.

As for Anglo-French defence cooperation - it ain't happening. They have meetings at NATO, agree they have no guidance from either London or Paris and go for a coffee in the canteen.

Your comment about xenophobic little Britons is in fact wrong. I would argue that those who oppose the EU aren't xenophobic, but are all too aware that there are more potential markets and partners out there than the EU. I would far rather have closer ties with the Commonwealth, and the US. The UK is far more atlanticist than it is European.

[PetiteRaleuse]

I'd disagree. I'd like close ties with Canada, NZ and Oz but the others? Not sure. Lots of curruption and scariness going on (not everywhere, just in some places).

As for the US excuse me while I cringe at the idea. It is they who have created the recession, and they who have led us into several pointless wars. They still have the death penalty in several states and the opinions among the political elite as regards Islam, abortions and education are horrifying. It is frightening how insular they are.

I would much rather get into bed with the EU than the US. The special relationship goes one way with the US - believe me they would not be there for us in case of any trouble unless it was very firmly in their interests to be so.

[PetiteRaleuse]

But maybe I have spent too long on the continent and can see through the pro American crap the Brits get fed from Murdoch and the like.

[claig]

But PetiteRaleuse, it's all just theatre to con the public.

Remember Perle railing at the French because they wouldn't go along and using terms like "surrender monkeys" etc. I think I remember hearing that he had a holiday home in France, as do most of the well-connected.

Then Obama said that France was the US's best ally.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346006/Barack-Obama-declares-France-biggest-ally-blow-Special-Relationship-Britain.html

It's all smoke and mirrors, just theatre.

[scaryteacher]

'They still have the death penalty in several states and the opinions among the political elite as regards Islam, abortions and education are horrifying. It is frightening how insular they are.'
Mmm, and Islamic states don't have the death penalty and horrifying opinions on abortion and education. They are not insular are they?

'But maybe I have spent too long on the continent and can see through the pro American crap the Brits get fed from Murdoch and the like.' Pot, kettle, perhaps you are being fed anti American crap in the European press. I have a lot of time for the US. I hadn't noticed it being a particularly two way relationship with the EU - Brussels issues diktats, we fall into line (sadly).

Claig - I believe the phrase is 'cheese eating surrender monkeys'.

[claig]

Yes, that was teh one. ''cheese eating surrender monkeys' and "freedom fries".
It's all good Punch and Judy comic knockabout.

[PetiteRaleuse]

scaryteacher I never said I'd like an alliance with Islamic states either. In fact, I wouldn't - not in anything like what we havewith the EU anyway.

Now you see I don't find the European press is anti-American. There is the odd thing but you'd be surprised how open they are to the US, in spite of some big cultural differences.

You see, that's another thing I like about the EU. Its openess to other cultures. Of course there are vocal minorities who are nationalists, or racist, but on the whole I find the Europeans are far more openminded re funny foreigners than the Americans or the Brits.

[OTheHugeWerewolef]

Corruption in America, vs corruption in Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, or Romania. Or indeed Greece. Crete has 100,000 inhabitants and took £30,000 last year in tax receipts. Lovely and honest.

And let's not even start on the pork-barrel politics afoot among the eurocrats.

Staying in the EU because that's better than allying with corrupt America? Are you sure?

[PetiteRaleuse]

Sorry, I didn't accuse the Americans of corruption. I was aiming that at some of our fellow Commonwealth members. I don't know of American corruption though I am sure it exists.

[PetiteRaleuse]

But don't get me started on corruption in the UK. We're not that much better than our European neighbours, as much as you'd like to think we are, we really are not.

[noddyholder]

In definitely

[scaryteacher]

I don't think howvere that Europe is as open minded as you claim - dh has worked at the EUMS and NATO since 2004, so 7 years now, and is astounded daily at the reinforcement of national stereotypes and how true they are.

As for vocal minorities - try the split in Belgium for a start, despite being the place that houses the majority of the EU institutions, Belgium is split by a language line and the divisions on either side are bitter, and deep.

You only have to look at happened to Yugoslavia after the death of Tito to see what the outcome is for countries unnaturally welded together. I don't think we want to go there do we?

Thought this was interesting as well...
www.expatica.com/be/news/news_focus/Crisis-exposes-Europes-cracks_184070.html?utm_source=BE+Weekly+Alerts+Newsletter&utm_campaign=cd7613618d-Weekly+Review+-+Belgium+-+26Oct11&utm_medium=email especially the bit about Van Rompuy being offered president of the 17 eurozone states....conflict of interest much?

[niceguy2]

Sorry, wasn't trying to divert the debate off at a tangent by mentioning the Falklands.

My point is that whilst we give the French a hard time (sometimes deservedly), when the shit hits the fan, they've proven they're our allies. Didn't we also recently sign a deal to share aircraft carriers?

I guess our relationship with the French is almost like the English vs Scots. There's a jovial hatred but again if the shit hit the fan, we'd be there for them.

So like I say, we're better off in the EU as a trading nation and I can even see the benefits of a EU federal superstate (and plenty of disadvantages) but we need a referendum. Just not right now.

[PetiteRaleuse]

But we are not being welded together anything like to teh extent of what happened in Yugoslavia.

The split in Belgium is not to do with the EU - it is to do with two nations and cultures being welded into one generic nation.

This is not what is happening in the EU. Belgium and Yugoslavia are completely different situations.

Stereotypes are there for a reason - I find Europeans acknowledge and celebrate the differences in Europe. I fail to see what our differences have to do with the EU. I never claimed we are one culture - we erally aren't and that is part of why it is so great.

[scaryteacher]

'The split in Belgium is not to do with the EU - it is to do with two nations and cultures being welded into one generic nation'. I am aware of that and was picking up on your earlier point about not everyone being open to other cultures. However, the end aim of the EU is to do away with individual countries and replace that with the EU, which I would argue is many nations and cultures being welded together into an artificial construct/generic entity, (Europe) hence the comparison with Yugoslavia.

Do you not think that one fiscal policy, one tax regime, one foreign policy, one govt that has supremacy over national law etc etc, which is what the EU is aiming for, does not have parallels with Yugoslavia?

What you don't seem to grasp is that the EU is not benign. It wants us to be European before we are Brits, French, Belgian (Flemish or Walloon), German or whatever. It does not want to celebrate our differences, it wants us all to conform to a one size fits all mentality and identity.

[PetiteRaleuse]

I think you are wrong on so many counts.

[scaryteacher]

I think you are; nothing I have seen in my 45 years convinces me that the EU is a good thing, and I have been even less enamoured of it since living in close proximity to it and having dh working in the EU.

[PetiteRaleuse]

Shall we agree to disagree? I don't think either of us are going to convince the other we are right :)

I live in very close proximity to the EU too - I work in Luxembourg and obviously therefore come across EU workers on a regular basis - some of whom are pro and and some are against, like your DH.

[LemonDifficult]

OUT - there is far too much distance between power and voters. It is very undemocratic; offensively bureaucratic when faceless Euro suit salaries are put into the context of essential austerity cuts taking place in the UK.

However, as other posters have already said, we must retain our trading relations - something that the Eurozone needs as much as us.

[scaryteacher]

I'm happy with that Petite. Dh being an SNE would not give an opinion whilst he was there, but he was distinctly underwhelmed.

[malakadoush]

I'd vote in - it would be madness to come out now.

[FantasticVoyage]

Not only would I vote to stay in, the thought of Britain voting to leave scares me so much that I am learning German as part of an exit plan.

[breadandbutterfly]

OTheHugeWerewolef - source please for your claim that "Crete has 100,000 inhabitants and took £30,000 last year in tax receipts." Sounds rather unlikely.

As to me, i'm in. I feel at least as European as British.

[scaryteacher]

Did you not see the article in the DT last week bread - more Porsche cayennes in one small town in Greece than those declaring 50,000 euros as their income?

[Bramshott]

Unless we get a large fleet of tugboats and try to move the whole of the UK into the middle of the Atlantic, we are IN Europe I think, and I'd vote to stay that way.