To census or not to census

[winstonsmith]

Join the boycott.

as i said somnambulism is a reassuring state to be in but when you realise you've been shafted you'll have only yourselves to blame.

cuts are being made due to the economic climate caused by greedy speculative investment bankers in the states predominantly. you know those who put money before morals. much like lockheed martin.

Very well said Hatti

I will be filling in the census as I think it is important for services, future generations etc.

Admittedly, I'm not overly thrilled about who got the contract but like others have said, Lockheed supplies many other businesses in the UK too and it would be stupid of me to risk being fined £1000 which I can't afford because of an ill thought out moral stance.

FGS, it is a form, millions of others will be on that form too, unless you're a multi-billionaire terrorist or something do you really think you'll be of any interest to these people other than for statistical purposes? If you do, how incredibly arrogant of you.

I wonder if the OPs clock is about to strike thirteen?

if you're happy with an arms manufacturer being involved in all these areas then you're as culpable as they are in their warmongering for profit. if the royal mail has links to Lockheed Martin even more reason to lobby MPs MORE and not be LESS engaged and humane.

i'll leave you to your sole opinion love in.

when you've opened your minds somewhat we'll all be a happier lot.

Strawberries i'm not able to contribute as much as i'd like to to this thread as i've a baby to look after plus am a touch disenchanted at so much lack of healthy objectivity in posters on here and the slightly bullying tactics implemented to take the piss out of someone who's only intention was to stimulate reflection. it's pretty petty and i'd have thought better of mothers frankly but there you go.

my reference to being shafted is in light of the fact that if you can't seriously see the problem in a de facto CIA agency like Lockheed being in charge of the census (or, indeed, having ANY commercial/polictical links to our once great nation) then there's no hope.

just hope you aren't one of the "enemies of democracy" that Lockheed and their political puppets are going to need in the future to justify their repression of any opposition or dissent.

www.truth-out.org/is-lockheed-martin-shadowing-you66741

this link is for anyone openminded on MN politics section (that'll be the 2 of you, then).

if you've not heard of the military-industrial complex then you could start finding out stuff on it. or just shoot off defensive posts without knowing f-all about the subject.

winstonsmith -

a) How will the census data help in quelling dissent?
b) Why is it not easier for the CIA to get this data by just asking the UK government when it becomes necessary?

winstonsmith - £150 million is £150 million. I imagine they are either reusing capabilities they have already developed for something else so the costs are very low, or are wanting to develop these capabilities so are prepared to accept higher costs/less profit.

The company I work for has revenues about a tenth of Lockheeds. The bit I work for generates revenue about a 20th of that for the Census. We still think it's worth doing.

The Coalition Needs You during world war 2 census data was used to round up japanese american citizens to put them in internment camps. they were considered enemies of the US at that time. who's considered enemies of the UK at present, in general? who's to say this data wouldn't be used to track or even fabricate handy one size fits all contemporary "enemies of democracy" who could, in the future, very well turn out to be anyone who dissents or protests (activists etc).

the CIA as it stands can't ask the UK for census data legally but if a US company stores that data they can legally access it under the Patriot Act.

The Census doesn't ask what your politics or activism are.

And what does the fact that Lockheed are collecting the data have to do with that anyway? Your example is a state using data collected by the state.

One of the conditions of the contract is that the data is never handled by a US company - all the work is done by a UK subsidiary. So they can't ask for it legally using the Patriot Act.

Ok, I haven't hidden it yet:

winstonsmith - do you really think that the government could not get a whole host of data on you if it really wanted to: do you shop online? Do you have a Boots advantage card/Tesco card, etc. Do you vote? Have a mobile phone? This is all accessible data on you which is stored.

The Census data is information on the population at large which is extremely useful when planning services. As others have said non-completion leads to a totally skewed picture of the needs of the population. But people have already said that on this thread and you don't seem to wish to acknowledge that in any way.

Don't register with an NHS doctor -- they have heaps of sensitive and very specific info about individuals, increasingly stored very centrally.

Don't get a credit card, or get a bank account, or use Paypal, or apply for a supermarket loyalty card, or do anything that might fetch you up on Experian's database.

Don't send your kids to a state school. The LEAs have heaps of info, including all about household income, children's medical needs, their parents' residence and marriage status, etc.

Don't apply for tax credits -- actually, don't get into the PAYE system or do self-assessment. Way too sensitive data you're giving away there.

I could go on and on...

After all, if you assume that governments are that quick to abuse Census info (rounding up suspect minorities, for instance in times of war), why give them any info about yourself, ever?

i'm erring on the side of caution and i'm boycotting it. or possibly by doing that they can pick up on potential "enemies of the state". my intention in starting this thread was not to convince anyone to boycott but rather to stimulate an ounce of reflection and plant that tiny seed of doubt that's so vital in our "DEMOCRACY". when we can't do that anymore that's when we know a line's been crossed.

i fear in our case it's already been crossed re. dodgy dossiers, nonexistent WMD etc. do you really trust them?

Pick up on "potential enemies of the state"? ROFL

you can run but you can't hide Mrs........

anyway i've had enough of this now. i've got friends over for dinner. yes, i'm a "normal" mum who's concerned about the way things are going particularly for my son. it's easy to depict anyone with these kinda worries as paranoid etc but that still doesn't dispell the very valid concerns growing numbers have over these matters.

Nah, I'm not going to bother keeping a straight face as you have assured me that you don't have the necessary gubbins to torture me. I might have to snigger when I walk away.

Oh and what hatti said.

So what awful things have happened as a result of all the other census collections? Or has the argument moved on to conspiracy theories because the whole arms thing has been debunked?