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Politics

Should racist speech be controlled by the law?

205 replies

MrManager · 07/12/2010 18:56

Specifically the criminal law, i.e. should it be an offence (as it is now), or is freedom of speech too important?

OP posts:
Blu · 09/12/2010 11:15

Nickie's post said that she agreed with me that racist abuse / violence should NOT be treated any different to any other abuse / violence, because a punch is a ounch and just as horrible for the recient whoever they are.

Desiderata immediately started insulting her! She added that people who are vulnerable because of physical difference (children / disabled people). NOT black people, need protection. Desiderata accused her of protecting black people in a patronising way.

Nickie declined to re-explain her post, to cintiniungh insults from Desi.

How is Desi being bullied?

Desi - please post your original comment again, because I would like to debate a) does it matter what goes on in other countries - what matters to us, surely is what we allow, and what we wish to be acceptable here in our country b) whether racism is in fact simply generated by indiginousness or otherwise, majority / minority in quantity, and / or how other factors are involved - compare and contrast countries in which the indiginous population is now in a minority and subject to racism etc etc.

It can't just be an issue of numbers: DS (as a mixed race Asian / white child is in a minority in his largelt black british class and there is no reported racism by anyone.

How ever it happens, racism is dysfunctional in some way, and the result of dysfunction, but the way forward is to remove the dysfucntion, not criminalise people's expression of thought.

DuelingFanio · 09/12/2010 11:21

MyCounty - the 'black and proud' sentiment/call came after many many years where black people were beaten down, bound in slavery, denied votes and so on. If you are unaware of this then I suggest you do a bit more reading and educate yourself on history of racism'. You might also want to read up on the kind of organisations who use the phrase 'white pride'.

for the person who called someone a 'black bastard' I would suggest that you examine your racism, because that is racist and though you protest that you are anti-EDL and so on you were displaying racist behaviour by bringing their colour into an argument where it was in no way relevant.

I'm also calling 'Troll' on some of the posters on this thread and then hiding it.

Nickiename · 09/12/2010 11:22

I can see why you are so keen to defend name calling, MyCounty, as you love doing it yourself. You say you came on here because you were upset that someone (Desiderata) was being verbally 'bullied', yet I'm supposed to suck up her and your personal attacks? At least attempt some consistency of thought.

Nickiename · 09/12/2010 11:24

You hate 'bullying' unless it is on the grounds of race, or you are doing it yourself, right?

mycounty · 09/12/2010 11:37

Riven.I'm sorry if you are being harrased. Contact the police we have laws that deal with this and threatening behaviour. I don't like people being prosecuted for calling me an 'English Bastard' It has happened in this country and it is ridiculous.

Nickiename> Please don't put words into my mouth. I did not make ONE personal attack on you. You impliment yourself....sadly.

sarah293 · 09/12/2010 11:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

mycounty · 09/12/2010 11:43

Riven. Laws are ok, but criminilisation through speech IMO is wrong. You are being harrased and as said we have laws to deal with people who abuse others already.

sarah293 · 09/12/2010 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

scurryfunge · 09/12/2010 12:25

I don't think mycounty understands the difference between a criminal act act and free speech. She fails to see that causing harassment, alarm or distress through words or behaviour is unlawful.

As fro Desiderata being bullied -rubbish.
She made a racist comment that was quite rightly deleted.

Nickiename · 09/12/2010 12:25

Well, not quite. It's not illegal to BE racist. It's illegal to stir up racial hatred and to use racial insults.
There is no absolute free speech. Libel is illegal, hurling abuse in public is illegal. I am fine with laws limiting insults on the grounds of race, as this is clearly unreasonable. I am less keen on laws limiting criticism and abuse of say, religion (note, I do not mean abuse of individuals, which should always be harrassment and/or breach of the peace) but criticisms of religions which are something people choose, not something they are born with. I hope it is never illegal to call Scientology a money-grubbing, immoral cult, for example.

MrManager · 09/12/2010 12:35

Roman Catholicism is a money-grubbing, immoral cult.

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 09/12/2010 14:12

But not all money-grubbing immoral cults are Scientologists or Catholics.

OH. Cults.

mycounty · 09/12/2010 14:43

Scurryfunge. I already said that causing harrasment/threatening behaviour is against the law. Please read the posts! Smile

Nickiename · 09/12/2010 14:43

ho ho ho

mycounty · 09/12/2010 14:48

Nickiename. Glad to see you've got the spirit of Christmas! Xmas Grin

scurryfunge · 09/12/2010 15:36

So what is your point exactly then, mc?
You seem to be saying the law is wrong and people shouldn't be criminalised for racist behaviour.

Blu · 09/12/2010 16:40

I don't think Desiderata has been bullied -
but I don't think her post was racist, either. It sounded obnoxious (the way she wrote it), but what she said was an opinion or a position that could have been debated.
Her opinion was exactly the sort of thing I wouldn't want to see censored.

Whilst harrassment which is racially motivated should of course be not lawful. Alongside all other sorts of harrassment.

scurryfunge · 09/12/2010 16:49

""white people have not been victims of racial abuse in the UK is because this is where we belong"" that is the comment I objected to.
The inference that I do not belong because I am not white in the UK is blatantly racist.

I am quite happy to argue with the rest of her drivel as I believe free speech is important but a line has to be drawn when it becomes personal. The "we belong" is so offensive.

mycounty · 10/12/2010 10:17

Scurryfunge. Not wishing to prolong this wonderful debate, but please......'We belong' was 'so offensive' you're having a laugh right?Xmas Grin People have surely upset me and you, said to your face ten times worse I'm sure! My husbands mixed race and he had to LOL at your comment! Perhaps that's why he's so successful he does read 'racism' into everything that's said or that he reads. Xmas Smile
P.S. Everyones offended by everthing these days!

I tell a lie, he's boo- hoooing in the corner this very minute!

scurryfunge · 10/12/2010 12:48

You clearly do not understand the concept of racism, then. I expect your husband is acquiescing if he refuses to see what is written. It is the effect of the comment that matters. Try reading the Race Relations Act sometime.

You need to stop patronising me by telling me how I should or should not feel.

mycounty · 10/12/2010 14:07

Scurryfunge. I don't see racism everywhere (thankfully) That poster was only pointing out the obvious that Africa is a black country and this predominately white. Why worry about that. My husband does not give a shite, he feels he belongs here and couldn't care less what others write or say.

As far as the Race Relations Act is concerned it's been shoved down everyones neck for long enough! I'm sure its a great work of art in the literary sense, but I have no wish to read it!Xmas Grin

So lighten up it's Christmas!Smile

scurryfunge · 10/12/2010 14:12

Now you know that is not what the poster said. I still maintain that not belonging in the UK because I am non white is a racist thing to say.

I don't see racism everywhere -it is usually more covert than the D's comments. Honestly, that is the sort of tripe the BNP spouts.

Good luck and have a Merry Christmas (resisting temptation to say may all your Christmases be white) Grin.

Will leave this thread now - I keep picking at it like a sore, as I'm sure you do too.

mycounty · 10/12/2010 14:16

Scurryfunge. Have a nice day!Smile

Blu · 10/12/2010 14:26

Mm, yes, actually I agree with you Scurry - it was a pretty dodgny way to put it.
Obnoxious pov (to me, anyway) but I think views expressed like that should be debated not deleted.

ISNT · 10/12/2010 15:04

So is anyone actually pro-people being allowed to say/shout intimidating, threatening or offensive things to other people when out and about? I am a bit confused.