Should racist speech be controlled by the law?

[MrManager]

Specifically the criminal law, i.e. should it be an offence (as it is now), or is freedom of speech too important?

No jacqueline, that's clearly harassment and as your example shows it's already covered by existing laws.

What we're talking about is what you say, perhaps in the privacy of your own home. Would it ever be ok that you could be arrested on the strength of that?

I don't see the problem with punishing/banning racist speech.

The main arguments for free expression are:

1. We can achieve self-autonomy if we are free to search for and express our ideals and values. But racism clouds your judgement irrationally, how can you call a racist autonomous?

1. We can only search for truth, and amend society's values because of our discoveries, if we have complete access to any and all information. But racist speech will not reveal any truths. We have already discovered that racism is a Bad Thing, and we don't need to pretend that this is an area that needs any further research.

1. Free expression is fundamental to a democracy. But racist speech can actually prevent others exercising their voice - like BaroqinAroundTheChristmasTree said, victims can feel persecuted; who wants to stand and speak if it risks verbal/physical abuse?

I think it is entirely justified to do this.

Can someone please clarify this for me:

If in the course of a row I call someone a black bastard am I committing on offense.

If I called the person a fat/stupid/ugly bastard i know i would not be committing an offense

If I said to a crowd kill the black bastard i know I would be.

What the blue blazes is "We can achieve self-autonomy if we are free to search for and express our ideals and values" supposed to mean?

Truly, this is teenage bedroom stuff. Are we supposed to discuss this incoherent junk seriously?

newwave

The 'black bastard' comment would be an offense, specifically under s18 of the Public Order Act 1986.

Sorry catinthehat2 I guess it did get a bit academic. It basically means that you can only 'be your own boss' if you're allowed to see and say what you like.

There's a fine line between simple explanation and patronising attitude, and I'm worried I crossed it. Please don't be offended!

MrManager - surely it would depend on context? And who said it? If one black man called another black man a "black bastard" can that be defined as intent to stir up racial hatred?

MrManager, thanks, I have read your link.

Between two people how would the insult be stirring up racial hatred.

"We can achieve self-autonomy if we are free to search for and express our ideals and values"

I think that was one of New Labour's slogans.

I think it is a public disorder offence to swear at people in public and can be a breach of the peace. Harassment in a public place is also a public order offence. There are laws on being drunk and disorderly and laws against begging in a public place. Racist insults come under the same laws and rightly so.

Claig, so when does a row become a public order offence, is it the language, the volume the row is carried on at, when it becomes physical, who decides ?.

I am asking for a good reason

If it is a public place newwave.....that is all.

it is the language and even the loudness. I guess it has to go to court for the final decision to be made.

Dunno about being too academic.

Autonomy - the meaning already includes the word "self".

Self - autonomy sounds a bit - well - silly.

Come on, share what other "autonomies" you have in mind.

newwave: "Between two people how would the insult be stirring up racial hatred?"

Because, apparently, the insult constitutes hatred against a group of persons, in this case defined by colour (black).

This link has more sections, which my last left out - s17 defines racial hatred quite broadly, even anti-Welsh stuff can constitute 'racial hatred'.

But it is quite rare for a person to go to court under a s18 offense - the CPS even needs the Attorney General to give permission to take the case forward.

catinthehat2 Meh, I guess. Usually it's called individual autonomy rather than self-, but mine's shorter. Doesn't really matter.

I suppose it could refer to types of
political, religious, medical, operational, philosophical or sociological autonomy, and that's just from Wiki.

Scurry, If it is a public place newwave.....that is all. Does that mean if I have a row with DP in the supermarket car park I can be nicked? :o

The reason i asked is this:

A year or so ago i came back to my car in the supermarket car park, some idiot in a 4x4 had parked so close to my drivers door i would have needed to get in via the passenger, rightly annoyed I was putting a note under the wiper saying "leave a tin opener next time you fucking moron" at that moment the driver (a middle aged black women) arrived back, read the note and we started to have a row. Now I am not proud of this but I ended up shouting into her face that she was "a fucking thoughtless fat fucking black bitch".

She said she would take my number and call the Police. Never heard a word.

I would claim provocation.

Ah, so you are the new Cambridge Emeritus Professor of Wiki Cut'n'Pasteology. Many congratulations

Provocation isn't a defence to a s18 offence, it's only a defence to murder. So if you'd have murdered her, you have been OK - she parked too close, no jury would convict you!

The defence to a s18 offence is "it is a defence for the accused to prove that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the written material displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling."

So if you were in a house, you'd have been OK. Supermarket car park, not so much.

MrManager, it was within 6 inches of my wing mirror.

I was wrong to say what I said but ..... miss she started it.............

She told me my note was out of order to which i replied so was your parking after that it went down hill.

newwave, yes you committed a public order offence - section 5 POA or a racially aggravated section 5 POA or a 4A Public Order offence - whichever cap fits.

I'm no expert but I remember reading a case in the papers where someone got extra time on their sentence, because there was a racial element due to a racial insult.

I think Jack Straw brought that law in
www.independent.co.uk/news/labour-conference-straw-pledges-stiffer-sentences-for-racial-crimes-1233593.html

I think you were lucky that she didn't press charges.

All great in theory but in reality I doubt many cases like this would ever end up in court.

Still no answer to my question about what happens if a black person calls another person a black bastard? Or even a "fucking black bastard".

See it's not the words, its the context. In newave's example I am assuming it is because the implication was that the other woman was only a bitch (and parked her car too close etc) because she was black. When in fact the colour of her skin was totally irrelevant in this argument.

scurry as I saw I am not proud of it but I had good reason to be pissed off.

If a black person calls another black person a black bastard - if someone deems this incident to be racially motivated then it is a racial incident....it doesn't matter who (ie.passer by). It doesn't matter on the context just whether anyone felt it was racial.