Should racist speech be controlled by the law?

[MrManager]

Specifically the criminal law, i.e. should it be an offence (as it is now), or is freedom of speech too important?

PS. The Daily Mail is good read!

White people haven't really been victims of racism in the UK, so it is one-sided.

AnyFuleSno Tue 07-Dec-10 21:08:17
No jacqueline, that's clearly harassment and as your example shows it's already covered by existing laws.

What we're talking about is what you say, perhaps in the privacy of your own home. Would it ever be ok that you could be arrested on the strength of that?

No, no he wasn't prosecuted for harrassment he would never have been brave enough to just stand in front of me and say it.

He was heard to say this in a very loud voice once within a communal hallway, once whilst on the stairways in his flat and then again whilst having a conversation accross the street with his 9 year old daughter.

There was a lot of fuss over what could and what couldn't be deemed illegal. It was agreed in court that he could not be prosecuted for the comment that he made within his own appartment and that was dismissed. However, the comment he made in the street and the comment he made within a communal stairway (on the way to his appartment) he could be prosecuted for and he was found guilty.

There was a lot of umming and ahhing about prosecuting him for making a comment within the building he lived in, but an amazing court clerk found one other case that had set a prescident and so the racist bastard got what was coming to him. Hurrah!!

Jesus newwave, you need help. Your note was completely out of proportion and your subsequent screaming of abuse in public was deeply offensive - I would have found it unacceptable and I might well have called the police on you, and I'm white. I certainly would have been unhappy for my children to have overheard that filth. Have you thought about some kind of counselling for your anger problem (and your racism tbh)?

I think the note was quite mild. I have to fight the urge to key the cars of people who park badly.

Newwave I would have pressed charges against you.

Your reaction was dispicable, oh I bet you went away feeling very proud of yourself for having racially abused a lady who made a mistake in her parking!

What a wanker!

There is a difference between 'racist speech' and racist abuse.

Abuse that amounts to harrassment, or causes fear or threat, or a public order offence should rightly be controlled by law - but I do believe that it should refer to all personal abuse, equally. Disablist, ageist, fattist, homophobic - anything used as an insult, even the non-specific or universal 'twat'! Either it's wrong to abuse or harrass people verbally or it isn't. It can't be OK to abuse and harrass some people verbally but not others. I had thought that 'assault' covered verbal attacks, (with assault and battery' referring to physical assault) but I'm not sure.

NewWave - I have left notes on people's cars when they did that, but you went wrong when you included the 'fucking moron' bit in the note - you could have stopped after your tin opener line. If you want to won an argument make sure your own moral status is robust. And as for claiming provocation - that's pathetic. People who punch women in the face often claim provocation - how does provocation make anything OK?

Blu, the Public Order Act does apply to everyone if there is harassment, alarm or distress. There are also racially aggravated offences covering much the same but with the motive being racial. The penalties for racially aggravated offences are higher. You can have an assault with a battery but public order offences deal with it better.

• assault without a battery, meant to say.

Thanks for the explanation, Scurry.

I don't think that there should be different categories of penalty. It's useful to have 'hate crime' acknowledged and recognised, partly to stop it being marginalised as unimportant, and it's useful to know, be reminded and given evidence for the fact that some groups of people endure it in disproportionate aounts, just because of who they are and the continuation of racism etc. But that's different from creating specific criminal categories.

I think that the law recognises that racial offences are particularly vile but agree any hate crime should have a heavy penalty.

"white people have not been victims of racial abuse in the UK is because this is where we belong"

wtf does that mean?

I would have thought it was fairly obvious, Scurry.

Jeeze ..

Explain

I thought I just did.

As it happens, I agree with Blu. I think it is very important that we realise that certain groups are subject to disproportionate about of discrimination and abuse. I am not sure that being hit in the face hurts less if you are white than black. I do think hurting people who are particularly vulnerable should carry a heavy penalty though. So the effect of punching a child, a person with a disability that causes physical weakness or emotional vulnerability or someone significantly smaller than the the attacker should be reflected in sentencing. I do not agree with laws about religious hatred. I think there is a huge difference between the things you are and are inherent(race, colour, disability, sexuality) and the things you choose (religion, politics). One is fair game for criticism, the other isn't.

Have you any idea how patronizing your post is, Nicky?

You are implying that by being black, you are vulnerable.

That's what I don't get about people like you. You are so racist, it's fucking unbelievable, but you just can't see it. You think that people with a different coloured skin, or a different God, need your protection. Well let me tell you, kid. They don't.

They really don't.

We're all just folk, and it's our lot in life to fight our own battles. The very moment that you suggest someone's ethnicity gives them a special status, is where you lose the argument.

Wherever you live, and whatever you do.

Desiderata, I don't think you can read very well. Either that or you have trouble understanding. Take your pick.

And I note that one of my posts has been deleted by Mumsnet because I dared to point out the fucking obvious.

That white people tend to come from the Northern Hemisphere ....

So let's make an amendment.

Black people don't come from Africa.

Hmmm, not good enough, Nickie. I can read pretty well.

'I am not sure that being hit in the face hurts more if you're black or white ....'

What difference would it make? A slap in the gob is a slab in the gob, surely?

If you're prepared to differentiate, it would imply that you think the two races are separate species.

Yes, dear, you can read but clearly you don't understand. It's a bit sad. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Desiderata - If your original post was "white people have not been victims of racial abuse in the UK is because this is where we belong" then that's not accurate.

"white people have not been victims of racial abuse in the UK is because there are more of them"

would be more accurate.

But still wrong as some have.

Everyone comes from Africa - Mitochondrial Eve lived in East Africa.

Oh! I don't think I'm embarrassing myself at all.

You haven't given a reply to my posts, beyond the yawningly boring insult. That would suggest that you've hit a golden duck.

Dear oh dear.

You must be an Aussie.