When will the BBC be held accountable for their lack of patriotism

[longfingernails]

Why does this far-left propoganda group continually try to do Britain down?

Why can't they have more presenters who think like the majority of Brits - people who believe that Britain is truly great - indeed, the best country in the world.

People who believe in our institutions, who love the monarchy, who revere the military, who speak in hushed awe about the majesty of our traditions. Presenters who are over-awed by the silent beauty of our countryside, and the glory of our heritage and history. Why do they always use their sneering, supercilious, Guardianista attitude - this constant insinuation that Britain should always be taking the blame and apologising. Coincidentally, it seems to stem from the same sort of sneering middle-classery that is prevalent on MN...

The most recent, shameful episode is the Beeb trying their best to spoil the England 2018 bid. Now I have no time at all for football - I can't stand it - but I fully recognise how important it is for our economy, and also for our national psyche.

The sooner the BBC withers and dies the better. Sadly, it has gotten away with a miniscule 16% cut in the TV tax over 6 years. They will continue their ramblings for the foreseeable future.

Claig - I suggest the best thing to do is to READ Plato.

Essentially, it's the idea that there is an ideal form of all things (which actually exists in some other 'realm') and that ll things in our world are reflections of it.

Platonic Idealism

You'll like it, it's quality hatstandism.

Plato isn't studied because he was RIGHT but because he was influential.

TCNY, there you go with the old evidence-based materialistic scientific thought. Plato dealt in the abstract, the realm that is closest to the absolute. The infinite, abstract world that is the real language and meaning of the universe, not what can be seen under a microscope. That is the language that approaches the mind of God and the heart of the universe itself. That's why philosophy is the queen of all sciences, because it is through philosophy that we make sense of data and thought. That's why science was a subset of philosophy and why great mathematicians like Descartes and Pascal were above all philosophers.

Plato's theory of forms sounds spot on to me

I'm quite prepared to rest my hat on it.

As I said, Claig, you are a pre-enlightenment thinker. There are people who think we were better off in the 14th century than we are now, but I'm not sure you want to make common cause with them.

'you are a pre-enlightenment thinker'

If you mean I don't agree with the Climategate scientists, then yes I would agree with that. I think some of Plato's pre-enlightenment thinking has never been surpassed and never will be surpassed, because geniuses of abstract thought are rare, whereas Climategate types are two a penny.

No I mean that you don't believe that your opinions should be changed in response to evidence.

I do change my views according to evidence. But have you changed your views as a result of the evidence that came out about Climategate?

When you are talking about human nature and good and evil and abstract concepts like truth, beauty, justice, love and patriotism, you are in an abstract realm of philosophical thought, not in the simple world of evidence-based microscopes, telescopes and figures

Then you are in the world of Plato, and not the climatologists in East Anglia.

Plato's world is the world of truth, since that is the objective of philosophy, to understand the truth.

'People who aren't patriotic may have swallowed a Marxist propaganda line.'

Just coming back to the idea you have that Marxism and patriotism are mutually incompatible, and thinking of the Soviet experience in WW2 -- but nah, there's no point arguing or putting forth any sort of evidence-based points here. They just sink into the wooly, marshmallowey-ness, never to be read for all I know, certainly never to be addressed.

Michael Collins is loved by many Irish people, but reviled by many too, and he was both loved and reviled during his lifetime, by many Irish people -- Loyalists or Unionists for being a guerilla fighter, and after the Treaty, by Republicans for selling out the Republic. That's why he was assassinated during the Civil War that followed the Treaty.

Plato's world is the world of opinion. The world of science and mathematics is still alive and kicking, and still seeking truth, based on fact, painstaking built on evidence and well-tested, and testable, theses and hypotheses. It's not a simple world. It's a world where whims and sentiment cannot be substituted for evidence or facts or solid argument.

Yours is the world of seeing a phenomenon and perhaps identifying it correctly, and proceeding, on the basis that your perceptions are just as valid as the results of any scientific inquiry, to argue backwards from your finish point. "I (think) I can identify patriotism and I think it is a natural and good thing, therefore Marxists, who are Bad, cannot be patriots, and therefore anyone who is not a patriot must be a Marxist or under the spell of Marxism. And the BBC are therefore Marxists and therefore they are unpatriotic and also Bad".

I didn't say the BBC were Marxists or unpatriotic. Are you arguing backwards from your finishing point?

Marxists don't believe what they preach. That is why, of course, the Soviet Union was patriotic, just like every other country, because they too know that it is natural and needed for cohesion against an enemy. Marxists seek to rob and deny other countries of their patriotism, in order to weaken them, but they are patriotic for their own country in order to strengthen it.

Michael Collins was assassinated because the assassins didn't think he was patriotic enough. But in his earlier days, they all thought he was patriotic.

Plato's world is the world of thought and wisdom, not opinion. You are a catholic and on many threads you defend Catholicism. It could be argued that that is a world of opinion and is not scientific or even logical. Plato applied logic and reason, not opinion, in order to get nearer to the truth.

You say, about science, 'It's a world where whims and sentiment cannot be substituted for evidence or facts or solid argument.'
Was that true of what went on in Climategate?

Michael Collins was assassinated because he had reneged on what his organisation (the Irish Republican Brotherhood) stood for, according to the party of his assassins. The idea of a Republic, with all power derived from the will of the people, without a monarch even as titular head of state granting power from the top down, was important -- an example of an abstract notion having real and concrete effects.

The IRB was a small secret society dedicated to armed insurrection operating within the wider framework of Irish nationalism. It was respected and at the same time feared by many other groups and societies working towards similar goals in Ireland a the time. Operationally speaking, it was a revenge killing and a very important blow struck against the Treatyite party in the Civil War that was then raging in Ireland. Eliminating Michael Collins meant that the IRB (a fundamentally undemocratic group) ceased to be the huge threat to other groups that it was while he lived.

WRT Climategate -- yes there was overstatement of the case, but that is not to say that the Bush administration had it right and there is no such thing as global warming. Certain facts about our impact on the planet and its atmosphere remain and must be recognised and dealt with.

The Marxists I have known believe every word of what they preach; their belief seems to me to be almost religious in nature. They tend to be humans, and get their beliefs about their individual communities, as well as their motivation whether pro patria or pro Marx from the same place that anyone else gets theirs from -- you can't argue that it was only the Soviet citizens in WW2 who, having been indoctrinated into Marxism, were then fed a handy patriotic lie in order to get them to fight for Marxist world domination, while in every other 'nation' no such cynicism ever existed on the part of the ruling classes, and the citizens felt some natural upsurge of their innate patriotism. Either all humans are capable of being manipulated by a carefully crafted patriotic narrative or none are.

'Marxists seek to rob and deny other countries of their patriotism, in order to weaken them, but they are patriotic for their own country in order to strengthen it.'

You could substitute any other proper noun here for 'Marxists' and it would hold true -- Nazis, Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans, Russians, Vikings, North Koreans, Iranians, British Imperialists, Spanish conquistadors, Afrikaaners. Whether they are 'patriotic' in order to strengthen or fearful of the consequences of weakness is debatable.

I was brought up as a Catholic and maybe it's what you could call a 'sturdy indefensible' aspect of how I go through my life. It's certainly not scientific or logical. I was happy to accept what I was told and taught about my religion; others in my family did not and do not. If I had been born Jewish I might keep kosher and worry about eating anything my sister cooked in her kitchen. (I may have made up for my quiescence in this regard by an excess of contrariness in other areas...) I am the oldest child, maybe that has something to do with it... I can see in patriotism something of the same dynamic and suspect the same capacity to manipulate opinion may be in effect. Religious or ritualistic practice in its most rudimentary form predates any evidence of patriotism though. I don't think the two can be placed on the same level (thinking of the Syllabus of Errors of 1864 and what it had to say about nationalism, which had only in the late 19th century come under the papal radar.)

Yes, interesting about Collins. I don't know as much of his history as you do.

'The Marxists I have known believe every word of what they preach; their belief seems to me to be almost religious in nature.'
yes I agree with that. I am not talking about ordinary Marxists. They do sincerely believe in what they do and they believe that they are right. I am really talking about the cynical leaders at the top. They don't believe it, they are in it for power and they use Marxism to get power.

You couldn't substitute Nazis, Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans, Russians, Vikings, North Koreans, Iranians, British Imperialists, Spanish conquistadors, Afrikaaners in terms of denying the patriotism of other countries. It is only the Marxists who seek to do that. That is because they are international socialists who seek to rule the whole world, whereas the others are national and do not seek to rule the whole world.

I agree that patriotism also has a dark side, because it can easily be used to manipulate people, and of course many wars are fought for the interests of the powerful and people are tricked that they are fighting for their country. The powerful tricksters know that patriotism is natural and they try to turn it to their advantage.

What did the Syllabus of Errors say about nationalism?

Did the Nazis have no intention of world domination? Or was that just the cynical leaders while the common or garden Nazis who did the actual killing of millions were fundamentally 'patriots'? Again, if all the Marxist foot soldiers are just the dupes of the rulers, how are all the 'patriots' not just the dupes of theirs? You keep on insisting that patriotism is something innate but you have provided no example that cannot be explained by some other force entirely.

The Syllabus of Errors considered nationalism an Error, an opium of the people if you will, a substitute for religion, a form of idolatry. It did not consider nationalistic feeling or sentiment to be something good or innate. But then the Catholic Church is an international organisation dedicated to its global mission, international peace under the guidance of the Holy Church, etc., so of course it would be fundamentally opposed to nationalism/ love of one's country/ patriotism/ 'my country right or wrong' etc.

No I don't think the Nazis did want world domination. The Nazis didn't care that the Italian fascists were patriotic for Italy, and Franco was patriotic for Spain. In fact they wanted that, because they believed only in the nation and not in internationalism.

Yes of course patriots were duped by their leaders. That is the way of the world. I think love is innate, and patriotism is love of country and I think that as it is a form of love, it is also innate, and stems from love of family and ultimately from love of self.

Thanks, I thought that that is what the Syllabus of Errors would say. You are right, it says that because Catholicism is a universal, international thing. It is a religion similar to Marxism in that it wants dominion over the whole world. For the same reasons as Marxism, it doesn't want people to have national loyalties, it wants people of all nations to owe greater allegiance to the Church than their nation.

Well, you can think what you want about Nazi intentions, but they wanted to carve up the world among themselves and the Japanese, and would probably have gone on to absorb Japan, certainly Italy and Spain if that became necessary -- which it wouldn't have if they had caused no trouble. They created a network of vassal states in eastern Europe and pushed east into the Soviet Union with the intention of wiping out the Slavs and colonising European Russia and beyond. Had they succeeded we would not exist. Our ancestors would have died shovelling salt in Siberia.

But Hitler was constantly trying to do a deal with Britain. He was not anti-British. He could have destroyed Britain at Dunkirk, but he didn't do it, because he thought that Britain would eventually do a deal with Germany.

He didn't declare war on Britain and France, they declared war on Germany. He did want to destroy Russia because they were communists and were a potential enemy of the Nazis.

And in light of the blind alley that nationalism, or 'patriotism', has led the world into not once but twice, I hope you realise the Catholic Church got it right wrt nationalism, i.e. that it is neither natural nor a good thing. The RC Church wants people to worship God, alone, and have no other gods but him (as in the Ten Commandments), acknowledge that all people are the children of god, created by God, and equal to each other as such (hence religion-based rejection of racism, always a temptation when you start categorising people into different races, human nature being flawed and fallen, etc.)

(Not 'rule the world' or 'owe allegiance to the Church' btw.)

Have you read some of the Fatima's Secret stuff and heard some of the priests on that? It is pretty frightening. Isn't the Pope supposed to be the temporal ruler, I can't remember the exact terminology.

Claig, read a history book. Any history book. Except any by David Irving.

You will find that when Hitler invaded Poland Britain and France declared war on the Third Reich, as Hitler knew they would, and as Britain and France had warned they would. They were not just waiting for a chance to declare war on Hitler. War against Germany was the last thing either Britain or France wanted.

Hitler wanted to conquer Britain. He couldn't because of the existence of the English Channel and the shortcomings of the Luftwaffe, and sheer luck going the way of the British in the Battle of Britain -- the Battle of Britain was Hitler throwing everything he had against the RAF in an attempt to conquer Britain, not just for the heck of it.... He could not have destroyed Britain at Dunkirk. His forces were stretched too far as they had been successful beyond their wildest projections in in their invasion of Belgium and northern France. Invasion of Britain was never on the cards at the Dunkirk juncture.

For such a patriot, you seem to know very little about what your patriotic feelings are about.

And read something about the Catholic Church that is not authored by Dan Brown.

Hitler was most definitely anti-British.

Patriotism I think of it like kids and adults. You're either of the opinion that respect needs to be earned, or you should respect me just because. I'm the former.

Really climber. So you think most Scots are awfully childish, along with almost all Singaporeans,Welsh, French, Indians, Irish, etc etc, anyone who supports their side in a sports event, as opposed to the best team etc etc. Don't be so ridiculous.