When will the BBC be held accountable for their lack of patriotism

[longfingernails]

Why does this far-left propoganda group continually try to do Britain down?

Why can't they have more presenters who think like the majority of Brits - people who believe that Britain is truly great - indeed, the best country in the world.

People who believe in our institutions, who love the monarchy, who revere the military, who speak in hushed awe about the majesty of our traditions. Presenters who are over-awed by the silent beauty of our countryside, and the glory of our heritage and history. Why do they always use their sneering, supercilious, Guardianista attitude - this constant insinuation that Britain should always be taking the blame and apologising. Coincidentally, it seems to stem from the same sort of sneering middle-classery that is prevalent on MN...

The most recent, shameful episode is the Beeb trying their best to spoil the England 2018 bid. Now I have no time at all for football - I can't stand it - but I fully recognise how important it is for our economy, and also for our national psyche.

The sooner the BBC withers and dies the better. Sadly, it has gotten away with a miniscule 16% cut in the TV tax over 6 years. They will continue their ramblings for the foreseeable future.

I'm not questioning the notion of 'coming together around shared values' etc, I'm simply asking questions about what these values are based upon.

Claig suggested this link was genetic: that somehow values are connected to our biology. I am disputing that. It is a very flawed idea and one that props up lots of beliefs that are problematic.

Apologies, I haven't read the whole thread but IMO that even if flawed, the BBC is still worth the money. I thoroughly dislike the likes of Jimmy Carr but I can choose to ignore him and switch over when his horrid little face appears.

On the subject of political bias and the OP - do we really want to go back to the days of "anything else to say to a grateful nation minister?"

Er, no.

You don't love the bagpipes. You are just saying you do.

Like some people pretend to like opera.

The 'hilarity' over Tourettes I do blame on that documentary years ago which ridiculed the boy who had Tourettes manifested with swearing - the 'anchoring' moment for most people about what Tourettes syndrome was. And I think that was the BBC. It was unfortunately a very misguided documentary. And things haven't changed much from that stereotype, aided more recently by the Pete from BB 'wankers' depiction.

Shared values are nothing to do with nationality.

smallwhitecat - having a drink is a very patriotic thing to do.

'But you said that patriotism was about ALL the people in our country. And you also said English, not British.'

I said patriotism is natural and is about love of one's country. I said the country is about all of us, but not all of us love our country. Yes Britain is not really a country, but England, Scotland etc. are.

So Welsh, Scottish and Irish schools should teach 'their' history?
yes of course they should

How far back would you go with people's genetic family and historical backgrounds? The Normans? The Vikings? The Indo-European tribes?
How far back would similar histories in other countries go? Say, for Americans? Or those in the Caribbean? Or Australia?

They should all go back as far as they possibly can, because those are their roots and made them what they are.

I think its only natural to feel some affection for the country that you are from and probably still live in.

I really haven't got the time to read this whole thread, but I have to say I find the OP very offensive; "speak in hushed awe about the majesty of our traditions. Presenters who are over-awed by the silent beauty of our countryside," are you having a laugh? This is not the 18th century you know?

The Monarchy haven't earned their privileges you know, it's just dumb luck.

I hope this is a joke

No, claig, those things made you, and me, and ALL the British (and Americans and CAribbeans) what we are: we are all mongrels.

There is simply no such thing as 'natural', genetic biological nationality, in the same way there is no such thing as biological race.

It is about cultural experience.

So the 'we' that you talk of is entirely dependent on who gets described as 'we', who gets to tell the stories. And history is always the stories of the winners as I'm sure you know.

So. We should - of course - educate our children in patriotism for our French, Viking and German origins? Our Jewish, Afro-caribbean and Irish origins? Our patriotism for the beautiful English countryside? But also for all the poor dead peasants who were moved off it to make way for the landlords who could afford to make it beautiful? Our raping and pillaging of foreign lands to make 'us' rich?

Patriotism is always very selective I feel...

Looking at english history alone wouldn't be enough to understand many key historical events. You would find it very difficult to study the causes of WW2 without looking at the rise of Nazism for example.

Claig - I don't at all assume that all rightwing people are rich; this would be as ludicrous as saying that all leftwing people are from one stratum or another.

But nor can you deny that the values associated with the rich of that period were undoubtedly rightwing.

I'm all for keeping the "flame of liberty" alive. I just think that true liberty means you don't have to think what you're told to think by people who think that their premise is "right". And you seem to do exactly this.

But I really can't believe that I've spent all of several minutes arguing with you when I should really be wrapping my dh's birthday presents.

Yes, we never talk much about colonialism. Or even why the Irish might be so pissed off.

Selective indeed

swc, I don't particularly want a coherent national identity, I want a contingent one. And a cosmopolitan identity.

It is in our genes to care for our families, because they share our genes. Our communities are extensions of our families, so it is also natural to care for them. However, it is not genetic to be patriotic to England, for example, because if an English child was taken as an orphan to France and knew nothing of England, then they would grow up as a French patriot, because they would be influenced by teh French cultural community. The natural desire to be part of a group of shared genes would lead them to be patriotic for France.

So yes I agree that love of country is cultural based on the natural inclination to associate with groups with shared genes. In Ancient Greece, there were no countries, but rather city states and tribes and the allegiance was to those and it was cultural based on the underlying natural inclination.

Soooo, Social Identity Theory then.

LadyBlaBlah, yes it could be that you are right , but I believe that is is based on the shared gene impulse, just as in fsmilies. Does Social Identity Theory involve genes at all, or is it just any old social group?

Claig - Genes are a terrible indicator of nationality.

claig, there is no such thing as a genetic desire to be part of a particular community

swc, contingent in the sense of being dependent on the 'idea' of nationality (ie a social and political fiction). In contrast to the idea that nationality is some kind of inevitable, natural extension of our biology.

And if you accept that nations are contingent, then logically, you have to accept that they are also flexible.

Which means there is no 'core' to our patriotism. No 'inevitable' set of things that English people HAVE to be allied to.

If you accept that there is no inevitability to the kinds of things we are patriotic about, then it allows more cosmopolitanism and not necessarily self-hatred. Self-hatred assumes a lack of pride etc.

I feel enormous pride in English, and British things. But I reserve the [cosmopolitan] right to say these need critique. And that there is no 'must' about feeling this.

And I also believe strongly, contra claig, that migrants can also feel this pride, precisely because they don't have to have a biological connection to nationalism.

Why?

Is the why at me? It's because we've all been fucking each other for the last 10,000 years.