Multiculturalism has failed, says Angela Merkel. Has it failed in Britain?

[mycounty]

"The Approach to build a multicultural society and live side by side has failed, utterly failed". Says Ms. Merkel. Has it failed in Britain? Particularly when we remember that all of the 7/7 bombers were British born? It appears the bombers had no allegiance to this country.
I think it has failed, just as it has in Germany.

"The Approach to build a multicultural society and live side by side has failed, utterly failed". Says Ms. Merkel."

well they could have gone about things a bit differently in my opinion if successful multiculturism is what they wanted but this was not initially the case.

Turks for instance (large minority in Germany) are leaving Germany in larger numbers these days than those entering. When Turks started arriving in the 1960's, along with other Mediterranean immigrants, the plan was that they were to stay temporarily in Germany which is why they were referred to as guest workers and no one seemed that fussed about ensuring they learnt the language beyond what was necessary for simple low-skilled labour since the idea was that they would leave after a term.

I have been told by Turks born in Germany (but have no knowledge of how factual it is or for how long this may have been the case) that the immigrants were only permitted to live in certain districts of town which contributed to a type of ghetto-building.

Children born to non-Germans were not entitled to German citizenship since this was based on jus sanguinis which is to say via the blood-line. They only changed this in 1999 or 2000, don't remember exactly, so that dc born in Germany of foreign passport holders are now entitled, under some conditions, to German citizenship. It is also complicated by the fact that Germany does not permit dual citizenship and once an adult of a certain age (not sure when) you do have to decide between German citizenship and any other. Britain is also different in this respect.

Can't really compare the situation to the UK IMO where immigrants from former colonies would often have been English speakers and came to stay.

So what does "successful" multiculturism look like and has it been achieved anywhere in the EU?

That is correct, Zzzen. Our DC were born in Germany and under German law they would have to decide at the age of 18yo whether to keep their German passport or their UK passport. If we had told the Germans that they had a UK passport, that is.

Only German citizens can vote so this law meant that many people who were eligible for a German passport did not apply as they did not want to lose their original passport. I would be eligible but there was no way I was giving up my UK passport.

Saying that, a lot of younger second or third generation Turkish children have taken German citizenship, and have integrated better into German society. I had several Turkish colleagues when I worked in Germany and it was not uncommon for them to marry Germans.

Are German 'expats' (because persons from rich countries are not migrants they are expats) going to finally try to learn local languages too?
multiculturalism has not really worked in the West. I think some Asian states have a better experience. However, 'integration' has not worked either. This was the first reason for 'multiculturalism' to be born.

IME German expats often do learn the local language to a very high level, much more so (just going on what I have seen personally) than English speaking expats. Not sure about German old age pensionners retiring overseas, perhaps they don't tend to but on the whole I would not pick out German expats as the nationality least likely to acquire a foreign language whilst living in a country where it is spoken. Has that been your experience?

You are right ZZZenAgain... I was married (in another life) with a German and he made a real effort to learn the language. Many others do, although not always (it very much depends on the country they are). British are notoriously bad at it because they expect others to speak English, which I guess is quite reasonable due to the importance of English globally. However, I would not say Germans 'integrate' better at all. I do not think Germans in Turkey integrate better than Turkish in Germany.

And I would hardly imagine 'expats' being convinced that they should learn the language 'immediately' to be welcomed anywhere.

I see your point and I agree with you. It is all down to comparative wealth in the end, isn't it?

There is a great deal of covert racism though. Those who say that those from european countries have a similar outlook and speak the language are not quite correct.

Basically my dh is Italian - and we know alot of people from his home town here. Their level of english is poor and they mix with each other primarily. However, as they look european and therefore like the majority of brits we just don't notice. When we do, we don't care that their loyalties lie with their country of origin as it doesn't seem so different.

I have two cousins who went to boarding school and couldn't be more enlgish if they tried and love cricket and played for junior county sides but if one so much as says he's rooting for india in one cricket match (not even against england) the view is well - how dare you - you are supposed to be enlgish.

Yet my dh would always support juventus and the italian side and he's applauded for it here.

Quite a difference in reaction and purely down the colour of skin and a non european name.

Sad really.

I have family who (from Turkey) have lived here over 30 years and they still support Turkey in football matches, sport, talk about Turkey (all the time) watch Turkish television. Although They can speak English like a native. It gets on your nerves, I have asked them, to "give it a rest" If you are so amoured of this country "why don't you live there! They take it in (good humour) and in good part, as they know I have a point!

It makes you wonder tho doesn't it? ..

Oh, and they got really wound up about Merkel, not wanting the Turks anymore!

don't want to make this too much about Germany but Angela Merkel is not saying she does not want the Turks anymore. (In any case they are leaving rather than pouring into Germany these days). There was a book published in Germany fairly recently by a guy called Sarrazin claiming that multiculturism has failed, was a huge mistake. This book seems to have met with widespread approval in the German populace (if surveys, media response is anything to go on) and launched a great fury of public debate. Merkel as politician and therefore vote hunter is responding to the vox populi.

Germany needs foreign immigrants, not enough dc are being born in the country. There is no way around it so they are debating now that there seems fairly widespread agreement that previous immigration politics failed, how to address future immigration. They are suggesting all sorts but essentially you need to pass language tests these days, learn about Germany, and they want highly skilled workers as opposed to low skilled labour force. Whether they can attract them seems another issue. So far they are failing to do so.

In fact multiculturism IMO is no less of a success in Germany than in the UK. What strikes me as different is that for instance you can be a black Briton and be considered as such in the UK by most people, in Germany you would not be considered a black German, whatever your passport and not even if you were third generation. I believe the overwhelming majority of Germans would mark you down as a foreigner. It involves racism of course but it is down more to the fact that until very recently you were German by virtue of having a German father or grandfather (and people find it hard to adjust to moving away from that definition.

Many countries offer help if you can prove a blood line.

Yep, I see someone who looks different from me and I assume they are british. I'm british but don't have a pure british isles blood line at all but I'm a citizen anyhow and I think I'm a good one.

Oh yes - my county I have asian family that take chilli along to italian restaurants as without it the 'food is bland'. But got to laugh.

My dh has nothing good to say about the UK but when we're in his country he gets so angry at the lack of this and lack of that thet and then starts complaining. I think it's part of expat life.

We are never going to be a perfect country as we do have a native population and to strive to be a nation of immigrants then won't work. However, we've done very well out immigration. I really feel it when I'm abroad- how people think it's OK to talk about other people and make far reaching crappy assumption and also assume that you think along those lines is just (to me) pretty shoddy. We're doing OK.

Germany is a different case as rights depend on blood lines. Our history is different and we should go with what works for us.

Low-skilled immigrant workers,especially Eastern European, are some of the hardest working people I have ever come across. Their work ethic is incredible,and contrary to popular belief, they earn minimum wage, pay tax, and are happy to work whenever required, unlike their native counterparts! many of the unskilled workers have degrees in engineering, quatity surveying etc from their own countries, and are an absolute God-send to any manufacturer in this country. Until the average unskilled British worker can get over himself, I'd employ an immigrant any day.

Merkel does not want Turkey to join the EU.

yes, I think that is true mycounty

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet.

The last time Germany tried monoculturalism, it didn't work out so well, did it?

TLD are you saying that monocultures are prone to genocide?

The process of converting from multiculturalism to monoculturalism practically requires it.

Yugoslavia is an example of what can happen to multicultural societies

So was Nazi Germany. Are we blaming the rise of fascism on multiculturalism?

Or perhaps there are other factors which affect whether or not a country commits genocide?

Yes there are many factors. But usually heterogeneous societies are harder to hold together than homogeneous ones. Even a country like Spain has separatist tendencies with Catalan and Basque elements. Even here, maintaining the Union will be difficult, because there is a strong urge towards independence for Scotland. I think Scotland will probably become independent within the next 100 years. I think the Scottish people will want that.

That's why politicians try to find the best method of assimilating immigrants, either through a French integration model or a British multicultural model. Somebody posted a link from Kenan Malik, who said that the multicultural model was a failure, because it was inhuman, and Trevor Phillips said that it was not working. There is no easy answer as to what is the best way.

Switzerland, now there's a racist country!! You can't even become Swiss unless you are fourth generation and even then it comes to a vote!

Switzerland A lovely country, where many would love to live (but can't). clean air, little crime.........and they keep out the riff raff!

Well, that's settled it.

complimentary, you are indeed my new favourite poster .

All anyone has to do is hand you some rope, and well... you know the rest.

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

A friend of mine went there her husband is Nigerian-Russian, he is an obstetrician. They stayed with a family friend of my friend. The mother was heard, in a nice tone, remarking that she didn't know that they (meaning black people) could be doctors. She had no idea that she shouldn't say things like that, she was in her fifties.

THE. Why aren't you at work? are you bunking off?
I love to swim against the tide don't you? was never any good at keeping my un PC opinions to myself. Do you shoot fish in a barrel? Why don't you try clay pigeon shooting it's much more fun and my son is a dab hand at it, might try it myself actually.

Well....that's settled it. You really are my favourite poster also, as you seem to like shooting.