God???

[MissBegotten]

got into a really heated debate with dh today, about the existence of God. i am unsure, used to have strong faith, but, i dont know, just have many doubts and unanswerable questions. Anyway. he was basically saying that there HAS to be a God, because the universe is too complex to have evolved by chance! So I asked him where did God come from? If the universe MUST have been created, then where could a being capable of creating a universe have come from - far to complex to have evolved and must have been created. But. then that means that there must be a being out there capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe. Which means - a being capable of creating a being capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe and so on ad infinitum!!!!

but if God can just be there, no creator, then the universe could just be there, no creator = no God anyway.

butif you believe the universe could not have evolved by chance - who created God and why dont we worship THAT entity (or the entity that created it etc etc??)

But if there is no god, how did the universe begin? first there was nothing, then there was something? the big bang? there was nothing in the emptiness then 2 bits of whatever crashed together and hey presto? from where?

my head hurts! So, basically, if there is a God - where did He come from?

But Tinker its more simple than that, every time you're nice to someone you are acting like a Christian

Crikey, I'd forgotten all about starting this as my brief alter-ego. Lots to think about, and since there really is no conclusive, independently verifiable evidence either way, it comes down to faith, doesn't it?

Only one way to know for sure, and so I am quite happy to wait for a very long time to have my answer.

I think that as long as you are a good person, who does no harm and you try to help people and live a good life, you can't go wrong. If there is a God, well, I'm sure he'll be happy. If not, then there is nothing and it won't matter.

I think the Desiderata is as good a set of rules to live by as anything else!!

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy

Think I just saw Mike Scott in there Paps! Scared me off!

Peachy, I don't understand what you mean, sorry.

MTPW - from Shakespeare a few hundred years before Ehrmann -

Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportioned thought his act
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar,
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them unto thy soul with hoops of steel,
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatched unfledged courage. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear't that th'opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice,
Take each man's censure, but reverse thy judgement.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not expressed in fancy; rich not gaudy.
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station,
Or of a most select and generous, chief in that:
Neither a borrower or a lender be,
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry;
This above all, to thine own self be true
And it must follow as the night the day
Thou canst not then be false to any man...

MonkeyT - I guess at some level if we stopped poluting the earth and causing global warming then yes, there would be fewer tsunamis, floods, hurricanes etc?
Re Famines - we need to learn the lesson of sharing - there is more than enough food in the world - just in the wrong places.
On Mugabe etc. - I think you hit the nail on the head - these are evil humans causing suffering by their decisions. Shame all the more powerful nations aren't big & brave enough to stand up to him. (but then again, we know what happened when we challenged Saddam...)

Maybe to some degree Jackstini, but I bet that if we stopped all pollution and shared all food and water, famine and flood would still happen. And great as we think we are, I've yer to hear of a man-made earthquake/tsunuami (Except for Lex Luther's in Superman)

Ja, had to google that name... so is that Waterboy Mike Scott ? I guess the technocoloured man could be him... but remember appearances are deceiving

so a chance to find your inner pongoid?

Shamanism is a set of tools and techniques used to interact with the spirit world and the world around us. It has no specific pantheon of gods and is attached to no particular culture. It is a way of looking at the world and at yourself. There are no hard set rules, no hierarchy to try and work through. Shamanism is the oldest known form of spiritual practice. It is a time-tested practice, what works is kept, what doesn?t is left behind.

Earth like the humans, the birds and bees is alive and therefore absolutely 100% + allowed experience, emotions and change.

The fact that we humans do equate a God to Earth´s existence and label God the supreme being, frequently puts human faith in God at odds with this planet - hence the disassociation and confusion when large Earth events occur.

As I am most interested in numerolgy and sequences of the spirit nature, I think your post at 4.11.11 was most divine Mytwopenceworth !
Wikipedia lowdown on numbers

And how about the definite godly belief that the earth and it's lowly animals are here purely for humans to exploit? Isn't that how we've gotten into the crisis of climate change, plundering the planets resourses willy nilly? I'd have to say that's been very bad advice.

Dominion is an attitude that runs deep through than the veins of humans. In todays world to place onus within just the realm of a religion is to slimpick the culprits of environmental degradation.

But it has often concerned me the off-planet once we are in heaven everything will be alright mind I have encountered with religion. Not all peoples of religious faith are unenvironmental, (just like the non-religious), some say Jesus was a vegetarian! - but I feel society has breed attitudes that exhibit a lack of responsibility in this lifetime towards planetary welfare.

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Intuition is the best place to start Bloss - we humans have busy top heavy minds that could well do with strengthening of the intuitive muscle.

* If we are the 'gardeners' of the earth and responsible for it, then it puts even more onus upon us to take care of it... *

Why is that revelation or truth the most frequently left off the TO Do list??? A sovereignty / dominion ill used and in much need of a gardening course - sustainable Christian gardening perhaps hmmmm? Because it is one thing to claim to be the gardeners it is another thing to see it manifested - and much to conundrum, manifested it is not.

If God is about Love - lets start by loving the Earth more!

There's a fascinating book called The Rebirth of Christianity. In it, the author puts forth the idea that modern day Christians (vs. early Christians/Gnostics) have suffered greatly because of having their spiritual core placed in an outward position i.e. Heavenly Father, vs. being able to look at the divine spirit that resides inside of us. Also, that this outward reflection has contributed to the lack of respect for our eartly domain.

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I'm not religous but the idea of god to me is that it means faith. faith that things are as they are, for a reason if that makes sense.

No that doesn't make sense either but at thats as good as its going to get as its past 3am.

Intuition and Faith

The two words that I see have been most linked to the concept of God in this thread. Perhaps people of religious spiritual backgrounds call it faith in God, perhaps people with no fixed abode in one designated area would call it intuition.

The high school maths experiments can erode both intuition and faith because a logical idea of God has not been proven in the field of science. Some would say because it has not been proven only proves more its reality or truth. We make associations and sit where it is most comfortable for us within our own reality.

What is reality? The ´real life´ full of manifested lives, lives that appear full of random acts which in reality are just too complex for humans to comprehend, the realm of intuition so hard to define and verify and frequently easy to dismiss in the technocratic societies of this world. There are so many private, subjective, emotional aspects to whether a person tells you for example, their birthday or not - how is that really analysed?

Well, I mentioned in my last post that intuition is a muscle. A muscle that is easy to discount because like faith it comes from within a person and is not always easy to view and anaylse on the outside. The same could be applied to faith in God within the Church - speaking in tongues, prayer, faith healing - all skills that whilst may be divinely gifted are also improved with practice.

And as I was thinking about the essence of faith and intuition, I googled the words together to see who would appear and came up with this site - Innovative intuition and one about Kant vs Ayn Rand which talked all about the noumenal and phenomenal reality of the Real World (life) versus the mind! Just what I have been reading, (Soul Mountain, Gao Xingjian) and thinking about and seeing in its essence in this thread - maybe it just my intuition playing tricks on me Or perhaps Monkeytrousers its a sign that I need your philosophical prowess back into this thread cos I am a junior at Kant and Ayn Rand

Anyways before I lose you all, if I have not already I think the skills of feeling, emotion, intuition and faith are not taught enough. Peerhaps thats why the world now needs therapists, hynotherapists, holistic practicioners and pills to tame our overwrought misaligned feelings. Learning these skills do not have to be wrapped up in overtly spiritual or religious mediums. But as someone who is obviously quite into emotional recognition and intuition with spiritual giftwrapping, I see those skills frequently lost or misplaced within childbirth, parenthood and life in general. We are losing our own inner God.

What has been lost is the ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE ? not the instinct itself.

Well my dd is awake so thats me for the now, but just had to add this link in interest, after trying to read some of this webpage about atheism versus faith ... I would rather trust my intuition and keep my faith in God

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Blimey Bloss you make it sound like I should be afraid of opening Pandora vile intuition Box. What about fear within faith, seeing as they both derive from similar places or dimensions, spiritual, metaphysical el al?

Is your intuition vile? Is there fear of its potential, or its potential within others? What do I have to fear from vile faith?

We have a well documented history of Faith dominating in a society and little for an Intuitive society. The only parallel and contrary opposite between the words faith and intuition, is that one is monotonous within a One aspect (religious god or domination), while within spiritual intuition there is the multiple, diversity within the One (god, goddess blah blah) Intiutivion is definately more subterranean in a positive way. Is that dangerous thing, wrecking havoc on our Planet? Are we to become demonic forms of Harry Potter?

You said you did not dismiss its presence, so if we are talking vile intuitive potential within ourselves, or as others see it, this means we must consider intuition when discussing God´s polar opposite, Mr. Satan... Well I say embrace the lessons of Yin and Yangs equal pathways of learning, not separate but inclusive to one another without being all consuming centrepoints in our lives. To ignore the contrary in shamanism is to ignore aspects of ourselves which can bring power (not over others but in the self) - in a completely non-dominating, demonic manner.

People do some strange things in the name of faith(s) and belief(s), and intuition. Letting intuition BE is as to the mind, the soul and the emotional physical. So it is with faith in the Holy Trilogy. How we utilise these aspects of ´ourself´ is important and workers of the holistic light do this to heal not maim in a professional capacity or not. It is like the inventions of scientists. So many scientists have intuitive inventions - Nicola Tesla surely had and also suspected their potential good and bad. Its a muscle lets use it more so we have some new mathematic experiments.

To claim that the mystics' mythology, or inventions, or superstitions are as valid as scientific theories, and to offer this claim to the unformed minds of children, is a moral crime. Is the child expected to make a choice? Only a very unusual, very intelligent and self-confident child would make the right choice in such a case -- and he would despise his teacher as a fool or a liar. But to the extent that a child trusts his teacher, he would be inclined to accept him on faith and to doubt his own mind (which, of course, is the result sought by Immanuel Kant, by the militant mystics, and by the ?creationists?). [Ayn Rand, The Age of Mediocrity.]

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Well done Bloss - 10% is an improvement on not understanding anything which you have said in the past mentioned. I guess it similar to when biblical texts are quoted... unless its your place of being it can come across as mumbo jumbo.

You must have understood my questions in response to your vile intuition comment.

Blimey Bloss you make it sound like I should be afraid of opening Pandora vile intuition Box. What about fear within faith, seeing as they both derive from similar places or dimensions, spiritual, metaphysical el al?

Is your intuition vile? Is there fear of its potential, or its potential within others? What do I have to fear from vile faith?

Contrary lessons are found in the tarot in Shamanism, Buddhism to name afew. Christianity must have some contrary lessons or ´bad´guys in the bible for learning??? Satan seems to be the ultimate contrary, but banished as having any form of lesson other than evil.

´The only parallel and contrary opposite between the words faith and intuition, is that one is monotonous within a One aspect (religious god or domination), while within spiritual intuition there is the multiple, diversity within the One (god, goddess blah blah)´

Faith in religion tends toward the One God aspect
Intuition as I see and use it has a multiple divinity, dimensional apspect.
Thats the difference I see - the opposite

Intiution is definately more subterranean in a positive way. (contrary or the dark side of life is not always evil)

You mentioned earlier the 4th dimension - time. So you must be aware of the concept of universal dimensions.

MT Ayn Rand appeared to be one full on broad. The level playing field accusations in that quote makes me think she placed science above all else. Morally we stuff all sorts of ideas into childrens heads - and our own!

That quote was in regards to creationism (or what is sometimes called 'intelligent design') over evolution. They aren't general arguments but very specific ones but that is the nature of science; it can't be dumbed down.

Who or what are militant mystics?

I am sure there must be some joke for this discussion at present... the philosopher, the witch and the religious mathematican!! - perhaps we need interpretors!

Bloss, ok, so what do you mean by vile intuition?

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Are you sure it´s intuition they are using to come to their rationale? Could also be their psychological and physiological makeup.

I had a flatmate once, who thought she had a direct line to God. But you would not dismiss the Bible as a moral authority?

Like I said in an earlier post, plenty of people take their intuition, or their faith in God and use it in strange or horrible ways. Its never 100% and like faith flourishes in all sorts of ways.

But from my personal perspective I see intuition, as I also said earlier, as a muscle that is very underdeveloped and under-utilised. Small wonder that people find it difficult to interpret and realise, in a useful emotionally advantageous manner.

H Pap's, Sorry, I've had a very busy day.
I don't know who the people she's talking about are either specifically, sorry.. I don't know much about her at all really as I've not studied her so am unqualified to comment.

On intuition, I'd say (very broadly) that it is like instinct, a predominantly underused sense as we (western) humans are very domesticated animals who don?t really need to live on our wits anymore. It's not redundant of course for the majority of people on earth who live in poverty and war zones, it?s the survival of the fittest in those areas and we have it easy here to invoke such survival skills with such whimsy and romantic longing. These are very primal skills that help animals live on their wits when they find themselves in very dangerous and unstable situations. There isn't much room for logic and reason when you're dealing with such basic reactions and for very good cause too. Human's evolved into the species we are today approximately 120,000 years ago. Those instincts and intuitions are there, as most of us on the planet still need them. But to feel the calling of them doesn't mean you have to be a slave to them at the cost of more sophisticated skills either. It?s just part of the confusion of being human and feeling urges that we don?t understand and trying to make sense of them..

I don't know if that makes sense. I've had an awful day and am a tad tipsy.