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Original poster

God???

112 replies

MissBegotten · 05/08/2005 20:00

got into a really heated debate with dh today, about the existence of God. i am unsure, used to have strong faith, but, i dont know, just have many doubts and unanswerable questions. Anyway. he was basically saying that there HAS to be a God, because the universe is too complex to have evolved by chance! So I asked him where did God come from? If the universe MUST have been created, then where could a being capable of creating a universe have come from - far to complex to have evolved and must have been created. But. then that means that there must be a being out there capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe. Which means - a being capable of creating a being capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe and so on ad infinitum!!!!

but if God can just be there, no creator, then the universe could just be there, no creator = no God anyway.

butif you believe the universe could not have evolved by chance - who created God and why dont we worship THAT entity (or the entity that created it etc etc??)

But if there is no god, how did the universe begin? first there was nothing, then there was something? the big bang? there was nothing in the emptiness then 2 bits of whatever crashed together and hey presto? from where?

my head hurts! So, basically, if there is a God - where did He come from?

OP posts:

PrettyCandles · 14/09/2005 13:57

Why shoudl God be supremely benevolent? That's a Christian perspective and there are more perspectives on God than there are religions.

God is a very useful concept, whether or not you are religious. I've just been reading Bill Bryson's Short History of Just About Everything (or something like that) and he goes to such lengths and tries so hard to explain the concept of a universe appearing out of nothing that I can't help but say "Give it up! Why not just call the unexplicable 'God'?"

If God is the prime mover, why does God have to have been created?

bloss · 14/09/2005 14:04

Message withdrawn

Tinker · 14/09/2005 14:07

That's quite a 2001:A Space Odyssey view of god PC. Makes more sense to me as an explanation ie god is a concept, a term to apply to that which is, as yet, unknown. And agree, god doesn't have to be benevolent. But, if not, why "worship" him , if that is what people do? Why not just rub along with him? If such a thing as a god exists, so what? Why do we have to amend our behaviour accordingly?

Am thinking out loud here, not addressing these questions to anyone in particular.

Tortington · 14/09/2005 14:08

it turns into a bible discussion rather than what is intended in the thread id you dont try to do it broadly

Tinker · 14/09/2005 14:10

It's not silly at all. It's quite possible to contemplate the existence of a god without referring to the bible. What did the Ancient Egyptians/Aztecs/Incas etc do?

PrettyCandles · 14/09/2005 14:14

Not even so ancient. There are plenty of people who worship what you might call 'little gods' - the spirits of life all around us. If I wasn't Jewish I think I might find Paganism attractive.

Why do we worship God? Because we're human and have human needs. We need a hierarchy to help us know where we stand, and the higher up the scale the greater respect we show (bowing to the Queen, for example).

monkeytrousers · 14/09/2005 14:40

"Why shoudl God be supremely benevolent? That's a Christian perspective and there are more perspectives on God than there are religions."

PC - that's why I said the theistic model.

monkeytrousers · 14/09/2005 14:47

I think people need a god to save us from the void not to reinfoce a kind of class structure - people seem to do that well enough without religion anyhow.

Because we know of our mortality we need to think (or hope) that our lives are worth something, that we are more 'special' or 'blessed' than the animals around us. Nature is brutally ambivalent, theistic gods are created as benevolent in response.

ScummyMummy · 14/09/2005 15:27

I just can't think of a logical explanation for God and don't buy any of the ones I've heard. So I think it's a faith thing. And I'm pretty faithless so far.

Isn't the alpha course a kind of brainwashing thing, Ronnie?

monkeytrousers · 14/09/2005 17:24

I don?t think there is a logical explanation for god, Scrummy, but it still is a relevant question to ask what was there before the universe began and how/what/who created it, if it was created al all. But we'd all need to be quantum physicists to even get near an answer, and up to now there isn?t' one, just evidence to the contrary of a god existing.

KateF · 14/09/2005 17:35

CardiganBay-you have it exactly. God is God and if we could ever understand him he would no longer be God.
And no an Alpha or Christianity Explored course is not about brainwashing it's about using your brain to explore challenging ideas.

Tinker · 14/09/2005 17:40

PC - re: the need for a hierarchy. Isn't this just support for the man created god argument?

I don't believe in god, btw, but do enjoy the discussions as to why people do. Would be interested to know how those who believe in the "god is god" thing reached that conclusion.

monkeytrousers · 14/09/2005 19:04

"God is God and if we could ever understand him he would no longer be God."

So you concede there is no logical basis for believing in god?

Papillon · 14/09/2005 20:37

It was the poetic goddess realisation of all those ´e´ words MT!!

"God is God and if we could ever understand him he would no longer be God." - The more we understand ourselves, how we as energy forms interact within the dimensions of this universe, then we may begin to to see our Oneness in the element of being God.

The membrane at the end of the Universe another slant on Strings

Cam · 14/09/2005 20:46

I like the Christian message which is very simple.

Love and forgiveness.

That's it.

monkeytrousers · 14/09/2005 21:10

I know this has probably been done in other threads but what of the problem of evil?

KateF · 14/09/2005 22:17

Evil exists because of sin, the concept of a fallen world in which man has turned away from God.

monkeytrousers · 15/09/2005 08:31

Erm, so why does evil happen to the innocent? Just to confirm, are we talking about the christian concept of god here, the omniscient, omnipotent and supremely benevolent one?

bloss · 15/09/2005 08:44

Message withdrawn

Ameriscot2005 · 15/09/2005 08:51

The full nature of God is revealed to us in the Bible so of course the bible is going to come up.

If you take away the bible, what are you left with? A Creator God? But the Creator God doesn't explain his relationship with his people, which is pretty important.

Ameriscot2005 · 15/09/2005 08:55

MT,

We all have been given free will by a loving God. He could prevent us from doing the wrong thing, but then we would turn into some kind of Stepford wives. No thanks!

Free will means that we are free to make the wrong choices and do wrong things.

There are consequences for wrong choices, and sometimes these affect innocent people - such as victims of drunk driving.

An important aspect of suffering is how we react to it. BTW, the Judeo-Christian culture is the only one that gets overly burdened by suffering. Interesting, eh?

Papillon · 15/09/2005 09:18

How about we consider then discussing God from all our perspectives? - as there are profusion of faiths and philosophies about this entity. Blimey the rules surrounding the God figurehead

People are not wanting to ignore Christianity and its view of God, but are hinting at discussion beyond just the major religion of most western countries, Christianity. Given that we have a cross section of females (atm) we are in with a chance of more than a one party vote

So lets fly with that then ...within our own realms of freewill of course!

PrettyCandles · 15/09/2005 10:28

I don't have a problem with the concept of God being created by mankind. When I said 'hierarchy' I didn't mean in the sense of putting other people down, but in the sense of knowing how you fit in with the rest of the world - or universer for that matter. We do our best to show our children how to behave, what we expect from them, but then we have to let go and let them get on with things themselves, mistakes too. If we didn't create a structure around them they wouldn't be able to get on with things themselves because they wouldn't know what was expected of them or what to expect from themselves. It's the same sort of hierarchy as exists in the world at large.

And I will not accept that evil exists because mankind turned away from God. In accepting that, we would have to accept the view that women are lesser creatures, because after all from the Bible point of view Eve committed the first sin and brought evil upon herself and Adam. Yet in teh Bible there are many instances of people being 'bad' and it is not represented as sin or turning away from God, but merely as a facet of human nature. And if God created us, then he created the capacity and will to do evil too.

PrettyCandles · 15/09/2005 10:29

Are we all monotheists in this particular discussion? Are there any Hindus?

ScummyMummy · 15/09/2005 10:32

I'm an atheist, if that helps pc.

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