God???

[MissBegotten]

got into a really heated debate with dh today, about the existence of God. i am unsure, used to have strong faith, but, i dont know, just have many doubts and unanswerable questions. Anyway. he was basically saying that there HAS to be a God, because the universe is too complex to have evolved by chance! So I asked him where did God come from? If the universe MUST have been created, then where could a being capable of creating a universe have come from - far to complex to have evolved and must have been created. But. then that means that there must be a being out there capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe. Which means - a being capable of creating a being capable of creating a being capable of creating the universe and so on ad infinitum!!!!

but if God can just be there, no creator, then the universe could just be there, no creator = no God anyway.

butif you believe the universe could not have evolved by chance - who created God and why dont we worship THAT entity (or the entity that created it etc etc??)

But if there is no god, how did the universe begin? first there was nothing, then there was something? the big bang? there was nothing in the emptiness then 2 bits of whatever crashed together and hey presto? from where?

my head hurts! So, basically, if there is a God - where did He come from?

Oops, sorry, very thoughtless of me not to consider the opposite perspective. This discussion so far is from, very approximately, two perspectives: One God v No God. I asked about Hindus because they believe in many Gods, so I wonder what their perspective would be.

I would say they are on the God side! One God, two gods, many Gods- same difference to a non-believer really. I think Hindu Gods represent the one supremne divinity anyway so you can all be on the one God side together. I do think it seems so much more creative to believe in God though. Great stories. Hindu Gods are very cool, in particular.

By 'evil' I also mean suffering not simply bad deeds..

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It's not a matter of chronology but of inheritance. In the Bible Eve commits the first sin by plucking and eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, which had been expressly forbidden by God. To make matters worse, she then gives some to Adam to eat. As a result they are then banished from the Garden of Eden and Adam is told that henceforth nothing shall be given to him but he shall have to work and earn everything 'by the sweat of his brow', while Eve is told 'in pain shall you bring forth children'.

So we have all inherited these conditions - nothing in life is free and childbirth is painful. I'm sure any Catholic Mumsnetters could explain the concept of Original Sin better than me!

BTW, the snake is also punished for tempting Eve - he is to be universally loathed and will crawl with his belly in the dust.

But I prefer not to accept that we have inherited these conditions. I prefer to believe that the Bible is a fairly true record of ancient history, and that some unrecorded things - like Creation - are the result of people's attempts at explaining and understanding their lives. Like why animals give birth so easily, but humans suffer.

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Interesting thread. the Big Bang theory makes sense to me, especially as my belief system centers around the energy of the universe as well as that which is in all of us. I think we are all personifications of God.

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God just Is. He/she/It is All That Is.. and we are part of God and so are all part of All That Is.

Yep Jabberwocky I agree with that actually!

But erm, that's not really an argument Sleepyjess. You can say anything just is. It doesn't mean it is though..if you see what I mean.

Oh my Cod, I geddit now!

Agree with SleepyJess

"We all have been given free will by a loving God. He could prevent us from doing the wrong thing, but then we would turn into some kind of Stepford wives. No thanks!

Free will means that we are free to make the wrong choices and do wrong things.

There are consequences for wrong choices, and sometimes these affect innocent people - such as victims of drunk driving."

If we are responsible for the evil (and suffering) we create then what of suffering that is natural in origin? Earthquake, famine, flood? These have been happening for aeons and if we are not responsible then god is. Does this mean if we all cleaned up our act there would be no more earthquakes, famines or floods?

By our own definition of morality (which religion claims alot of credit for), we cannot possibly find this acceptable. No one would support a court of law punishing the children of criminals and not the criminals themselves. It 's morally unacceptable and anyone who did act in such a way would be considered, dare I say it..evil.

Monkeytrousers, (hi )
So what about the Hindu (I think) theory that we have all these things thrown at us by nature, it is how we deal with them that matters? I find that a very intriguing notion myself.

Did anyone see the prog horizon on last night, about steven hawkins and his revelaion regarding balck holes, very interesting and turing science on its head.

But if god did turn us into Stepford Wives, we wouldn't know would we? So, why not? Seems very much that this is what the conservative Christian movement in the States is aiming for (Anyone see Newsnight last night? Home education booming because state schools are too tolerant! Girls being advised to dress in a way that doesn't entice men)

Alpha course. What would happen if enigmatic and persuasive people joined up and steered the discussions away from belief in god?

Bloss - of course the bible will get mentioned but if it becomes, yet another, thread with huge passages from the bible being quoted it is a huge turn-off for some.

I saw that programme Tinker, it was quite scary wasn't it, looked like yet another cult

Monkeytrousers.... All That Is IS indeed everything.. and all of that IS indeed God. It blows apart the vision of an old guy in the sky with a white beard.. and it makes us responsible for our own actions... and ultimately shows us the Reason we are here.. which personally up until recently I had wondered about my who life and nobody had every been able to answer.

Wouls this be a good time for one my links ?

I'm just on my way out Jess so I'll have a look at your link later. I'd agree that we are all ultimately responsible for our actions, but if that's the case then why do we need a god at all?

Tink, I was going to say that about Stepford Wives, we'd all be in blissful ignorance of our mortality like...most of the other species on the planet! Oh, and we can't have that!

Hi Peachy , it's is an interesting notion but if that is the case why didn't god just make us virtuous in the first place?..Too easy I know.

If suffering is the price we all pay for virtue why does god dish it out in the way that the does, for instance why is Pinochet getting millions in arms commissions and Mugabe living a life of luxury while millions of Zimbabweans live in abject misery. It's hard to understand how this seemingly random distribution of evil is supposed to make us better people. Or maybe we?ve got it wrong and Mugabe is really prophet come to lead us to the gates of heaven along with Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Rumsfeld, et al

But your point of reference is all wrong monkeytrosers: if you take the earn virtue through pain bit, you have to accept the after life. Then you get something to strive for, whilst the bad guys (Pinochet et al) get their comeuppance.
A short life of hardship isn't ging to seem so pointless if there is forever in bliss waiting, is it?

I know you don't believe that, but you can't really debate only half the picture IYSWIM, religion comes as a package.

But if you have to accept the afterlife, there is no free will. I don't believe in god or an after life. But, if they did exist, my non-believing wouldn't change that. But, to a christian, I have turned away from god and will, presumably, get my comeuppance. But god would have given me the thinking capacity to conclude that he doesn't exist. But will punish me for this? Why? I thought he was meant to love us.

No, I only meant that you have to include the afterlife in your calculations if you include other aspects of the religion, otherwise you can't explain the aspect you're looking at.

you don't have to accept anything yourself!

Slice of Celtic Shamanism anyone ??