How to advise newly-Christian friend who thinks that only Christians can go to heaven

[poguemahone]

A friend has recently become a Christian, and is very happy and excited about the whole thing.

She's having a bit of a tough time, however as she's getting into conflicts with people who don't share her beliefs. In particular she holds that only Christians will go to heaven. She's traveling in a non-Christian country so I can only imagine upset for everyone concerned.

We knew each other years ago when she was a lovely sweet girl but a bit wild, and she recently sought me out, probably because I've always been a Christian. She's keen to pick my brains on things like this, and I'm feeling a bit of pressure to get the advice right.

I've told her that:

• I believe people of all religion and none can go to heaven if they're good people.
• Although Christianity makes utter sense to me intellectually and emotionally, not everyone has been exposed to the same (cultural) background as me.
• God's fair if nothing else, so for example to discount millions of people who've never heard of Jesus, would just be unfair. (Likewise for people who've not seen great examples of Christians, who're happy with their own religion etc)

But she's asking for more info and I'm really no expert on this. Any advice?

What I want to know is:

a) if Jesus really is the Messiah, why aren't we living in the Messianic era of peace and love which he is supposed to herald? Christians seem to conveniently forget that the prophecy of the Messiah's coming is really not even slightly fulfilled by Jesus.

b) how is it that god "sacrificed" his son, when he got him back a few days later anyway? More like he loaned him out for a while.

The Bible really doesn't make much sense to me from a Christian perpective.

Traceface. Ty, I was genuninely curious about the 'direct intervention'.

There are a lot of people of course who will say that all religions are people reaching out to god and therefore equal. If god actually encourages someone to change from being muslim/hindu etc to christian that I guess that means HE dismisses all those others as worthless fantasies.

Annie - I only mentioned conversions from one faith to another in reference to the comment about only having the faith you're 'born into'. I'm sure there are many who have converted from Christianity to other religions - I just mean that I think a person's faith comes from God and is not bound by geography.

Annie there are dozens of prophecies in the bible which Jesus fulfills. I would quote several if I thought it would make a difference to your beliefs. Wihtout wishing to be flamed into a tiny crisp, I can speak for at least three of the Christian on here and say that there's a good chance that those who don't know Jesus yet on this thread are being prayed for right now. And we're sorry, but unashamed if that makes you angry.

I'd be happy to hear a few, Arcadie.

I think that the prophecies are mostly along the lines of "one day a lion will spring from the house of .." or some mention of shepherds and lambs and there won't be any that couldn't be satisfied 1000 times in each generation.

That's what I think too - but I am prepared to be proved wrong.

it really is very offensive and ignorant to pray for somebody when you know they don't want it.

traceface - sorry, but if you'd been born a Hindu, I really think you'd still be one. Have you truly researched every aspect of every religion on earth before deciding that Christianity was the right one for you? Or did you, as I suspect is the case, just stick with what you were born into with no research at all?

Arcadie - likewise I can quote several passages at you that show how Jesus doesn't fulfil the prophesy, but it's equally unlikely that I'll manange to convince you.

Doesn't make me angry Arcade - just confirms my beliefs about christians. And makes me laugh a little.

And trace and carrie - I was responding to this from trace's post.

"While I'm alive on the earth I try to live as Jesus would want me to, to show compassion, to be kind and gentle, patient, understanding, to be a friend to anyone who needs one, to share what I have, to be an example in my speech and behaviour - and I know I fail at all of these - but I want to do these things NOT for the sake of doing good - simply because I owe my life to Jesus"

Ok you didn't say you do it to get into heaven trace but you admit you have another motivation - you owe Jesus your life. I don't owe Jesus a damn thing yet I still live my life as you describe here without any carrot dangling over me or a stick beating me to motivate me. To me that's more admirable.

Greenie - just makes me giggle. Pray away ladies!

makes me want to go and have a hot shower tbh

Seeker On the basis of your name and the fact that Jesus promises that all those who really seek him will find him, I'll happily indulge you and accept that I'll probably get called something horrible on here for it:

Isaiah 9v7 - He will reign on David's throne - Jesus was from David's family and was proclaimed King of the Jews.

Psalm 22 - all about Jesus' crucifixion but hundreds of years before the event e.g. They divide my garments and cast lots for my clothing. They've pierced my hands and feet.

Micah 5 v 2 But you Bethlehem... out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel. - through a fairly convoluted path Jesus ends up being born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah 7 v 14 : "Therefore the Lord will give you a sign - the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him "god with us" - Jesus again.

I dare say no one reading this will be convinced by a bunch of Biblical prophecies, but we do pray that the God who wrote the Bible would open your eyes and unblock your ears so that you could experience how wonderful his grace is. And if you want more up to date miracle stuff I'm sure the Christians on this thread will be only to happy to oblige with ways that God has stepped into their lives in powerful ways.

Sorry it's taken me a while to type all that. Should have worked harder in typing lessons.

Hear hear Bunny!!! I much prefer the idea of being a good person, purely for the sake of being a good person!

I liken Christianity to god saying to you, "Here is a table full of drinks. You have free will, you can chose any drink you like. I gave you a brain to enable you to make your own decision as to which drink is the most appealing to you. However, all drinks but one are deadly poison. If you drink them, you will die a slow, painful, horrible death. If you drink the one I tell you to, it will be tasty and lovely and you won't die. But go ahead, choose whichever one you want!"

Bunny - you're right I maybe didn't express what I meant very well. I meant I don't do those things because it gains me anything or because I ought to 'do good' for the sake of doing good, but rather because in a response to the love God shows me I WANT to love him and others. So it is a desire to do good things not a pressure to do them IYKWIM!

God wrote the bible??

"Isaiah 9v7 - He will reign on David's throne - Jesus was from David's family and was proclaimed King of the Jews." - bit disingenuous to call him "from David's family" - he wasn't his second cousin once removed, it was an entire bloodline and applies to thousands of people. He never sat on a throne, never ruled and was called King of the Jews as a derisive insult - tenuous in the extreme

"Psalm 22 - all about Jesus' crucifixion but hundreds of years before the event e.g. They divide my garments and cast lots for my clothing. They've pierced my hands and feet."

Thousands of people were crucified during this period and the taking of clothes by soldiers etc was commonplace. Proves nothing.

"Micah 5 v 2 But you Bethlehem... out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel. - through a fairly convoluted path Jesus ends up being born in Bethlehem."

Thousands of people born in Bethlehem - and Jesus never ruled Israel

"Isaiah 7 v 14 : "Therefore the Lord will give you a sign - the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him "god with us" - Jesus again."

The virgin birth?!? Pull the other one, even intelligent Christians don't pretend to believe that. And there are mythological precedents for the virgin birth and ensuing Messianic traditions which predate Christianity by hundreds of years.

You'll have to do a bit better than that

OK, since you started it!

The word ?Messiah? is an English rendering of the Hebrew word ?Mashiach?, which means ?Anointed.? It usually refers to a person initiated into God?s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as ?an anointed one? (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: ?God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord?s Messiah [Saul]...? (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world?on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text?which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus? birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah?s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

See, it's all about interpretation. And as such, quite silly to get so worked up about.

I really find it tragic that Christians spend so much time worrying about the eternal fate of others, especially their loved ones. There's quite enough to worry about in life without "borrowing troubles" (I love that expression!).

Wow! You type fast!

I've said my bit for the moment - as I suspected you guys are very well schooled in why you don't believe aand I'm not coming on here to persuade you because I can't.
seeker hope you seek God where you'll find him - and that's unlikely to be on Mumsnet, great though it is.

I'm off to pray and do some Davina DVD!

Hooray for copy and paste! I take no credit for the below. It's all from here

But before I go, Bunny:

"I still live my life as you describe here without any carrot dangling over me or a stick beating me to motivate me. To me that's more admirable. "

I know trace very well and can happily tell you that she couldn't give a monkey's whether she's admired or not. She is one of the most caring and humble people I know and she does it to please her Saviour Jesus and no one else.

ok so that's taken care of the 'prophecies' then. I was looking them up, but you lot beat me to it