How to advise newly-Christian friend who thinks that only Christians can go to heaven

[poguemahone]

A friend has recently become a Christian, and is very happy and excited about the whole thing.

She's having a bit of a tough time, however as she's getting into conflicts with people who don't share her beliefs. In particular she holds that only Christians will go to heaven. She's traveling in a non-Christian country so I can only imagine upset for everyone concerned.

We knew each other years ago when she was a lovely sweet girl but a bit wild, and she recently sought me out, probably because I've always been a Christian. She's keen to pick my brains on things like this, and I'm feeling a bit of pressure to get the advice right.

I've told her that:

• I believe people of all religion and none can go to heaven if they're good people.
• Although Christianity makes utter sense to me intellectually and emotionally, not everyone has been exposed to the same (cultural) background as me.
• God's fair if nothing else, so for example to discount millions of people who've never heard of Jesus, would just be unfair. (Likewise for people who've not seen great examples of Christians, who're happy with their own religion etc)

But she's asking for more info and I'm really no expert on this. Any advice?

You forgot the passive aggressive smiley UQD

Yes, that is the sum total of my contribution to this 'intelligent' discussion. I'm not proud.

I still want to know how it is a Christian can know (without proof beyond human say so) that god is real but an Aetheist can't know (equally without proof) God is a fallacy.

Havven't read all this thread so excuse any repetitions.

I find reading modern literature useful in such situations, and especially C S Lewis (however one needs to read Narnia as an allegory and see all the hidden meanings for it to make any sense.... you've been warned!)

He addresses this very issue in Narnia: The Last Battle with the character of Emeth who serves Tash (the devil) his whole life, but is a "good person" and ends up in the real Narnia (heaven) and from here I'll quote Narnia for Dummies because it says it better than I do!

"However, the Bible is largely silent on how God deals with people who've never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. Some Christians believe that salvation rests on explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ, while others maintain that God, in his mercy, makes some allowances for people who've never heard the Gospel. Given the story of Emeth, it's clear that Lewis believes God redeems earnestly seeking "pagans" like Emeth.... For his part, Emeth is as surprised as everyone else ad certainly didn't expect to be in Aslan's country. When he first sees Aslan, Emeth thinks he's nothing more than an appetizer for the Great Lion. He's obviously stunned when Aslan welcomes him, saying "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me....

(from the actual book, the last battle): "Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I wh reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted." (all from p156 of the Dummies book)"

so, after all that, I agree with Lewis in that God takes mercy upon those that know not of him, but have been good and upstanding citizens... and if they've been "christians" but not acted as upstanding citizens, more fool them...

and now I'll apologise cos the thread moved on a bit!

So....which one is correct, then?

1. All christians get into heaven regardless of whether they are good people or not - all they have to do is submit themselves to Jesus and they will be Saved. The rest of us are fecked.

2. Only really good people get into Heaven and it doesn't matter if they are Christians or not.

3. Only really good Christians get into Heaven. Anyone else good can get into heaven but only if they've never heard the christian message and hence had the opportunity to reject it, eg small children, isolated Amazonian rainforest tribes etc. The ret of us are fecked.

4. Once you're dead, that's it.

TBH whatever you personally believe there will be plenty of people on earth who profoundly believe that you are wrong, they are right and their rightness books them a place in paradise. Faith helps people feel that they and their lives are important, loved and meaningful in a universe where in fact they are fleeting and more or less insignificant.

Lewisfan, that bit from The Last Battle stood out for me when I read it as a child. It appealed more to my sense of justice then did the stuff I was hearing from the church.

Mind you if that were the system then it would make christianity redundent. It showeed people being good or bad regardless of the religion they were taught.

Liath "Faith helps people feel that they and their lives are important, loved and meaningful in a universe where in fact they are fleeting and more or less insignificant."

I think you have summed it up perfectly. This is why Darwinism and the theories of evolution profundly upset some religious people (please note only some) as it shows us that the Earth was not created for man and that man is not necessarily the pinnacle of life. If we were all to die out tomorrow from some catastrophic but natural event it is almost guarenteed (given the evidence of this happenning many times in the past) that other forms of life would soon evolve, with the creation of a new dominant species. Natural history tells us that we are not important nor significant in ourselves (except perhaps as polluters, but that's a whole different argument). It's hard to swallow really as from our point of view (well, at least in mine, I don't really wish to shoulder everyone with my narcissim) our own person is the most important people in the world.

Terrible syntax there, sorry.
I mean that lots of people (myself included) can't help but see themselves as the most important person in the world. Only natural I think but often difficult to square with the enormity of the galaxy and the billions of years in time that it has/will occupy.

Catitainahatita (i tried really hard that time to spell it right ) - that must be why it seems less important to me to have a fantastic career/influence people's lives (excepting on a day-to-day basis)/change the world and more important to have a happy family life and bring my children up to be good people.

It's not going against any animal instints still left over to just want the best for your kids, is it!

GodzillasBumcheek : Ta, But could you try cut and paste to help ease the pain ??? It works for me with the horribly complicated names.

And sorry for having one such name. There is is good reason, honest

poguemahone I got about half way through this post and seen that it has digressed. I think you should explain to this woman that belief is subjective and very personal and if she has any questions/concerns that she should see the priest at her church. It sounds like she is really just interested in spouting of her new found interest, seeing as she is getting into altercations about it. Although I am not a believer in organized religions, I respect others who do but have always been a little leery of born again religious seekers. There is a weird level of desperation in any that I have known through my life... my mother being one of them.

I found that bit in the Last Battle deeply offensive. It implies to me that Lewis felt that everyone other than Christians were completely deluded, but the "good" ones could still come into heaven, because they couldn't help themselves with their "wrong" faith.

Just incredibly arrogant and patronising IMO.

I am an aetheist but it doesn't stop me from appreciating where other people's deep faith leads them to profound thoughts and deep thinking. The idea that they might be thinking of each other as either being "just a little bit wrong but never mind I'm sure my god(s)/nirvana will let them in on account of being so nice" or damned to wherever (but not my lovely heaven) makes me doubt that they really have any compassion or humility at all.

One of the central tenets of most religions is about knowing better and having a better god than other people and this ultimately is what put me off religion the most (especially given my parents huge angst about one being Catholic and one CoE, when they are supposed to have the same god in any case).

Have found this thread so interesting as am born Hindu, classic woolly liberal agnostic, married to a non-practising Catholic and two children being raised as sort of Catholic-lite, really for the sake of my in-laws (we go to church every 2-3 weeks, they are baptised, the older one goes to Sunday School- but we also go to the Hindu temple on special days). Am relieved to know that some Christians do NOT believe that all non-Christians automatically go to hell as I thought (along with the evangelists) that this was a basic tenet of the faith.

For me the reason that I have no wish or need to believe in an afterlife has been the instinct or feeling that life itself is a miracle and therefore sacred.
That we are given life is an amazing precious gift (by whatever means) that we should not waste by being immoral/evil/wasteful/petty/lazy/selfish/whatever.