How to advise newly-Christian friend who thinks that only Christians can go to heaven

[poguemahone]

A friend has recently become a Christian, and is very happy and excited about the whole thing.

She's having a bit of a tough time, however as she's getting into conflicts with people who don't share her beliefs. In particular she holds that only Christians will go to heaven. She's traveling in a non-Christian country so I can only imagine upset for everyone concerned.

We knew each other years ago when she was a lovely sweet girl but a bit wild, and she recently sought me out, probably because I've always been a Christian. She's keen to pick my brains on things like this, and I'm feeling a bit of pressure to get the advice right.

I've told her that:

• I believe people of all religion and none can go to heaven if they're good people.
• Although Christianity makes utter sense to me intellectually and emotionally, not everyone has been exposed to the same (cultural) background as me.
• God's fair if nothing else, so for example to discount millions of people who've never heard of Jesus, would just be unfair. (Likewise for people who've not seen great examples of Christians, who're happy with their own religion etc)

But she's asking for more info and I'm really no expert on this. Any advice?

I think the reason why people get testy about Christianity, is that by and large Christianity isn't a "live and let live" kinda religion. It makes a point of trying to impact and change people's lives, regardless of whether or not they're quite happy the way they are. This can get people, who just want to be left alone, kinda irked.

The only other religion I can think of that does this is fundamental Islam. I will admit they are worse in that they want to kill rather than convert me.

But still, can you understand that non-Christians, who quite rightly expect tolerance and understanding from people unlike themselves, don't like to be told they're wrong and must change if they want to be "saved"?

Within pretty much every other religion, the followers don't actually give a toss what everyone else believes, and so we all get along just fine!

Sorry, what kinds of "traps" are you "more exposed to" as an atheist bringing up children? Sounds like utter bullshit to me.

You can't just lob that one and run off!

Traceface, If you happen to pray for me accidently I won't hold it against you

Really, what is annoying is not the prayer, but the attitude that frequently goes with it. The worst case I suppose is when it's a veiled criticism. Like praying for you to be a better parent or something.

Even If someone says "I'll pray for you" sincerely then it leaves an awkward bit where they are half expecting me to say "thank you" or "how lovely of you" while I'm thinking "he just offered to ask his rubber duck for help. What do I say to that?"
I could just be polite and say 'thank you' but then they might go tell everyone "he was so pleased we are praying for him. There's hope for him yet"

lemoniee, I don't want to talk you out of your faith. If it has helped you to believe it (and maybe it is all real. I can't prove it isn't) I'm glad it has got you through things. I'm not really trying to unconvert people. Just to fight the erosion of our right to be atheists. Whenever we shut up about it the line gets pushed a bit further and our little space gets smaller.

abraid >>If I defend Islam dos that mean I'm standing up for the Taliban

Lemoniee - UQD is right. Exactly what "traps" are DP and I going to face as atheists?

Funny the way I see it we're living our lives free from traps. The many and malevolent traps of organised religion.

onagar I had a very annoying born-again housemate at university who used to patronisingly say "I'll pray for you" whenever he failed to convert me.

I used to say "Thanks. I'll think for you."

I wouldn't say that if it was well-meant though - it was only because he was really aggressive about it and kept telling me I would go to hell.

"Not saying he wasn't an inspiring teacher with a lot to say, and not saying his "ways" (which are not exclusive to him) don't have a lot going for them. Love they neighbour. basically, be nice to people. I can do that.

But he's brown bread. Has been for 2000 years. Sorry. "

for Quote of the Month

it's made my day

Muffle - I am now going to pinch that response and use it every time. Thanks - that's made my day!

I have been lurking on this thread for the past couple of days now.

I am a Christian - I believe that Christ died for my sins and that I should live like Christ did, spread his gospel and hopefully when my number is up I will be judged and have eternal life.

I attend what can be descibed as a vey evangelical chuch. I have done since I was about 15. When I went to Uni I met the type of Chistian you talk of muffle. They did and still do my head in. I don't believe they do Christianity or Jesus any favous. No-one should browbeat you with their religion. How in the world would that change your mind?

Would I not pray fo someone who asked me not to? If they were really upset at the thought of praying for them they I probably wouldn't, but I have never been asked that.

I can totally understand why many thing this sentiment is bonkers and that 'Christianity' and its many verions of seem of also seem ridiculous. However, this is MY belief. Do I shove my religion in others faces? No, not often. I am not comfortable doing it. But if someone asks me I would say I am a Christian. I like to think that if they know what I am like they can see that being a Christian doesn't make you that different from anyone else.

Muffle, nice line

lemoniee, I'll respond to that comment you dropped about the "testimonies from millions of people of different denominations of truly miraculous events in their lives , lots documented in great detail and confirmed by others"

I doubt they could actually produce even one. Oh you can say "my friend prayed and then got a job/got over an illness etc" but you can't show they wouldn't have anyway. When prayer was actually tested fairly on sick people the results showed no effect.

As for research. Look at the miracles of healing at lourdes and find one where an amputated limb grew back. It would be odd if god had something against limbs, but strangely all the 'cures' are things that can't be seen.

Also for testimonies try the Tarot thread where people will swear that the cards changed their lives. They are quite sure of that too. People read the newspaper believing that their stars predict the future too. Blissfully unconcerned that 1/12th of the population will be meeting a tall dark handsome stranger today.

'Are they even claiming what they do is the will of allah?'

Yes. That's what Jihad means.

'It makes a point of trying to impact and change people's lives, regardless of whether or not they're quite happy the way they are'

In the past this has included Methodists and Quakers and Salvation Army, etc, helping a lot of very poor people in Britain pull themselves up into respectability.

The culture of this country owes a lot to Christianity, as well. Pretty well all our literature until the 18th century is informed and guided by Christian teachings. Dickens, later on, is a profoundly Christin author.

And suddenly this is all interference and a bad thing?

abraid - I'm not talking about helping others purely for the sake of helping them in their physical circumstances. People of all faiths, and people with a complete lack of faith do that too - it's not a Christian monopoly.

I feel you missed my point. I said 'It makes a point of trying to impact and change people's lives, regardless of whether or not they're quite happy the way they are'. As in, trying to convince people that their lives would be better lived in Christ, when they're already as happy as they could ever hope to be without him. As others have said, it's insulting to us that some Christians assume that our lives aren't already pretty damn fantastic and could be improved.

UnPleasantdad

I think I will actually dedicate my last five minutes here to you.

I thought you were quite rude saying that I talk 'bullshit' and just can't ( is it a MN rule I don't know about?) 'lob' something and disappear, after I explained in detail that I wasted half a night and a good part of the next day on this thread and really needed to go and take care of my family.

Would you rather I stayed and my toddler went without lunch and my family's comfort on holiday was compromised if I fail to prepare well, shop etc

I cannot linger here and debate any longer full stop. I need to stop lurking, too , since as you can see I am tempted to post.

I will just say this. You kind of fell into one trap already setting a moral standard for yourself that says there is nothing wrong to seriously, in a very obnoxious way insult people's sincerely and dearly held beliefs, IN THEIR FACE. I wouldn't object to you and Greensleeves making mockery of my God in a very rude way somewhere private, it's your right, but on this thread it is sheer lack of basic etiquette. And you are passing your values to your children. No respect.

And....

Would you dare say the same words about prophet Mohammed in public.....and would MN delete it ?

I hate confrontation but how else can I say, your behavior dad is just not on.

I think the idea of "faith" means believing although there is no hard evidence to the contrary. I always thought that the "but there's no proof" kind of argument was kind of sillly in that case.

I know that being a Christian has helped lots of people, which is a good thing. I am happy for those who are happy in their faith.

I also understand, Abraid, that is not designed to make you happy. If you read my post, my unhappiness was not one of the reasons I decided that religion was not for me. It made me question it, yes; but the answers to my questions helped me understand my unhappiness and come to terms with it. The same answers prompted me to abandon Christianity. For a while I was just as unhappy.

I think what it all boils down to is that once we have made up our minds about something this important, we want to share it with others. Thus religious people wish to evangelise and share their "Good News". Thus I can't help wanting to share my conclusions because to me this is even "Better News". We're not going to agree on this, but we do have to live together. And we are lucky to live somewhere where both points of view are acceptable. Some people do not enjoy this luxury.

In the end, if you are sure of your position, which ever it is you are not going to be threatened or upset by this thread. Only people who are unsure and doubting might find it hard going.

Oh and, the living together bit: it really meand that we should learn to be polite. No one likes being insulted and it is certainly no way to win an argument. In fact, it is usually the last resort of those who have no arguments anyway.

lemoniee - I think I'll dare to answer one of your points for UQD. No, most of us wouldn't say those things about Mahommed, but not because we believe them to be any less true, but simply because some Muslims (and I emphasis that the some are a tiny minority) tend to get extremely upset to the point of violence. At least you Christian folk will engage in debate and not just freak out!

I don't evangelise, Catitainahatita. I very rarely talk about my religion in RL, unless people ask me about it. It's HARD work becoming a Catholic. I honestly don't think most people would able to put themselves through the process unless THEY themselves had moved towards Catholicism.

In fact the only time I talk about my religion is when I come on here and find myself moved to defend my co-believers for reasons of justice or misinformation about what most of us (the majority who aren't evangelical) actually believe.

There's something about the particular vitriol a few MNers (none of whom are actually on this thread) possess which ironically brings out the defender in me. My priest would be so proud and happy.

'At least you Christian folk will engage in debate and not just freak out! '

Thank you for that concession! I do believe that the Muslim faith is due an Enlightenment, similar to what most Christian branches went through in the eighteenth century.

I'm sorry Abraid. I wasn't talking about you particularly with the comment on evangelisation, only on the subject of happiness. I have no knowledge of you to be able to make any judgements on the matter. Really I was generalising on the basis of some of the posts and on my experience generally. So my apologies.

And a question: in the light of my comment on evangelisation I am interested to know why you don't evangelise. I happily admit to "evangelising" myself about my atheism; although, like you I don't tend to bring it up myself. I only set forth if asked (unlike here, where I have no shame whatsoever, it appears) Is that perhaps what you meant. That you don't practise unsolicited evangelising iyswIm??

abraid, to a certain extent someone could do a bank robbery or a murder and claim god told them to so I won't lay at your door every crime of that kind. However it was religious people that told them it was reasonable to think the voices in their head were from god. So that's an example of the harmful effects.

If a dangerous group exists within a religion and is not disowned by the rest then by defending that religion they are defending that group too.

In the case of those who are openly terrorists I expect most muslims disapprove. However we have seen instances of muslim religious leaders in mosques in this country extolling the virtues of terrorism. Those around them who call themselves muslim and defend islam vehemently are in the position of defending those people too. That's a downside to signing up to a group belief.

When Christians claim they must be right because there are so many christians they are counting in their number the evil ones too. No one ever said to me "we must be right cos there are 118 people in my local church and all decent god fearing people" it's always "there are xx millions of us".

I speak for me and me alone.

Lemonsee, just for the record I gather there are historical records showing that Mohammed existed (more so than jesus), but as far as I'm concerned he was no more a prophet than I am. Does that clear up this thing about "wouldn't say that about..."

To be clear by 'defending them' I mean by defending the religion as a whole and lending them credibility. I don't suppose anyone here is going to say "yeah go for it terrorists" or "yeah poor catholic priests shouldn't be stopped from abusing'

Catitainahatita

Onagar: 'When Christians claim they must be right because there are so many christians ' Huh????

abraid, yes all the time. I doubt you'll find many long threads without that coming up. Often quite openly with "millions of christians can't be wrong'

Lemonsee said "the evidence Christ is alive and well is found in countless testimonies from millions of people of different denominations.....'

See? It doesn't matter that they are different denominations who may well think most of the others are bound for hell (as we have seen on the start of this thread)

lemoniee ...... sigh.

I have not been unpleasant.
If you bother to read what I said you'll see that I was somewhat irked by something, I felt, totally unreasonable in your post - namely that being an atheist and bringing up children is full of "traps". I'm sorry, but that is what I said it is - you don't like the word I used, so I'll say "nonsense" instead.

And now you are judging my "values", based on what?

Judgeypants Christians... doncha love 'em...