do you believe in god?

[lilsmum]

if so, why?

btw i am not looking for a arguement or anything, just intrigued as to peoples beliefs.xx

not a bolt hole, a bolt i mean!

and you just revealed your prejudgement of me when you answered your question to me 'do you believe in the poss of there not being a god' yourself, withuot waiting to hear my answer. Weakness of character methinks!

think why i was a bit irate flum is that i've noticed you use this device of calling people who believe strongly about something 'prissy' or 'precious' in their views, and i find that a bit annoying!

Ok Ruty, sorry to have offended you. I was just answering the question. giving an opinion. which is my opinion. I don't mind you being a Christian at all. I'm not hugely interested in the subject which is why I just gave it a short answer.

I can't really get into the whys and wherefores of religious belief because it is just not something I can understand or relate to.

I think I percieve it as a weakness of character because it seems to be a a reliance on something to save you or help you through life which may be completely made up by powerful peoples in history to control the masses.

The arrogance to which I refer is the arrogance of man that we are so important that there has to a reason for us to be here, or some greater meaning.

I just think we are an accident of nature. A happy accident for me!

For the record 'prissy' is a word I have never used. But having heard it I love it, and will defo try to build it into my reportoire (sp????)

thing is flum i agree with Marx that religion was the opium of the masses, tho now it is the telly! I agree religion has been used to subordinate the poor, and thr role of women, etc for ever. But those people have completely corrupted what Christ came to do.And having a faith is not the easy way out. Sometimes its worse when at low points you feel alone and crap. Even Christ felt abandoned by God at points. anyway, respect your point of view. glad you've got a new word for your repetoire!

Absolutely I believe in God 110%!!! He has done many miracles in my life since I "met" him, thats why at night when I pray with dd, I always pray that she gets to know him early in life, cause once you know he is there and he exists, you will never doubt! Almost like driving a scooter - thinking thats really great and not believing someone has invented a car, and then one day - bang out of nowhere, you are given a car... never again will you doubt there is such a thing as a car, and never again will you want to settle for a scooter.... (dont know if that all makes much sense)

As for heaven and hell, If I tell dd that her uncle whom she has never met will give her £10 if she mows his lawn, she has no gaurantee that there is such an uncle (other than our words) and she has two options.

1. Mow the lawn and stand chance of this all being true, or
2. Dont mow the lawn and get squat!

Also, if she decides not to mow the lawn, she had better not think SHE is a higher power by laughing at or ridiculing those who do mow lawns, because one day.... they are going to be the ones smiling!!!!!!!!!!!!

So many people earlier in this thread argued that there 'can't' be a God because if there was then bad things wouldn't happen.

That's a simplistic way of defining a (non)belief in what is IMO a petulant and rather childlike way of looking at things. God put us on this Earth to live life as a test. If everything was fluffy and rosy, why on earth would we bother? Heaven is where we hope to go one day because that is a world where bad things don't happen.

What is the point of there being a Heaven on Earth? God allows bad things to happen because if he didn't we a) would never learn to develop spiritually b) would never find our faith is tested and c) wouldn't have a concept of Heaven as that is something we would have experienced all our lives and therefore would take for granted.

And yes, I do believe in God but DD needs supper so I'm not going to into why right now!!

Pinkfluffpudding, I most definitely do not agree that God allows bad things to happen in order to test our faith. I do think that without suffering we would be incapable of appreciating the good in life. But a suffering as a test from God? Not the one I believe in.

ruty, I agree with you that of course as a Christian we have faith that God exists, not 'proof'. As for it being a weakness of character, well I have to say my life would be a heck of a lot easier in many ways if I didn't believe. For me, faith is a huge challenge. Like you I often find myself arguing with both non-Christians and other more conservative Christians, and it is tiring.

One thing that puzzles me is why people believe thye have a right to be as insulting as they like about Christianity; for example, the mention of 'imaginary friends' earlier on (think that was a Jimmy Carr joke originally). It is astonishing how many liberally-minded people suddenly become intolerant and offensive when it comes to faith.

what annoys me is that people think it is ok to insult Christians but not other faiths. I agree the history of Christianity is responsible in large part for giving Christians a bad press but this is also true of other religions. I don't think religions should be beyond criticism, but personal faith is a complicated thing and should be treated with a bit of respect i think, whatever faith you are.

I think you will find it is not just Christians who get insulted.

ruty, I think faith should be challenged. That's why I think Philip Pullman's books are actually a good thing. Any faith - any God - worth believing in can take anything thrown at it. But that does not mean that anyone has the right to treat believers like we are juvenile, weak or stupid.

As for other faiths being treated differently, that sems to me to be a kind of racism. It's mainly white Christians who come in for stick, the inference being that white society is somehow more enlightened and people of other races or minority faiths don't know any better. I really can't stand Polly Toynbee's bigoted rantings in the Guardian but at least she is against all religion!

No, StG, I agree, there is a lot of intolerance against all religion in this country. But, perhaps because of the fact that other religions to tend to be associated with people from different racial backgrounds, Christianity does come in for particular stick. I personally had no problem with the screening of the Gerry Springer thing, but I can see why other Christians were insulted. One thing you can guarantee was that a play that was blasphemous against Islam in the same way would never have been shown.

i agree ionesmum, i love pullman's books, that kind of searing observation of faith, religion and god is brilliant. I had no problem with Jerry Springer opera either, except i thought the music was a bit crap. Its the casual dismissal of all that Christ stood for, that gets me, by people who can't be bothered to find out. Again, the church is responsible for making christianity off putting in many ways, and for taking the politics out of Christ and inserting in its space a load of bigotry, but still intelligent people should be able to see beyond that. Agree about Toynbee tho!

I've been doing a lot of reading lately about attempts to induce the experience of god by stimulating the temporal lobe of the brain. It's been known for some time that epelectics who suffer seziures in a particular part of the frontal lobes have intense religious experiences. It's known as the 'god spot'. Lately some research has been carried to see if this can be replicated. Interestingly it seems that while many subjects report experiences of a presence which they may or may not interpret as a religious experience, there appears to be a set of subjects that are immune to any experience whatsoever. (Richard Dwarkin being one apparantly).

Which leads to all sorts of interesting questions. Does God exist and has placed this facility in our brains in order that we as humans can 'know' him? If so, it's a bit inconsiderate to exclude a section of society from ever being capable of religious experience. Or are people's experiences of God merely firings on their temporal lobes which, because of culture or background they interpret as religious experience. If so, does this affect the validity of their personal experience of god? (I don't honestly think it matters personally).

I don't believe in god, I can't help it, I was made that way.

very interesting slug. thing is, for me even if god doesn't exist, tho i think she does, i still believe christ's teachings are fundamental to the way we should live, as individuals and as a society. And i'nm talking about social justice, not aboutr being anti gay or whatever.Anyway, intense spiritual experiences are rare even for believers!

slug - theres a lot of truth in that. studies of the brain have shown that certain people are genetically programmed to 'believe' and it is hereditary. certain wiring in the brain creates this sense of 'something greater'. Aparently studies showed an approximate 60/40 split in favour of believers.

So it could be true you are made as a non-believer

Aaah, but you can believe in social justice and have a personal sense of morality without needing to refer to a 2 thousand year old collection of stories, riddled with inconsistencies, written for a different society in a different environment. I don't think my basic morality is any different from most Christians, but I don't need to look to a book to justify my stance, I have to do all the thinking for myself.

Not that I think that Jesus didn't exist. The hard evedince for the existence of such a person is actually pretty good for someone not of the leading families of that time. Josephus mentions him. I just don't think he was the son of the chief fairy that's all.

I was at a lecture by Steve Jones where he pointed out that religiousity is one of those traits that is almost definitly handed down through the generations. If your biological parents were religious, even in cases of separated twin studies then you were statistically more likely to be of a religious bent yourself. The type of religion depended on the culture you were brought up in. So the implication is that a tendency to religiosity is genetic, the flavour is cultural.

As always, blame the mothers

and the fathers just not THE father (or mother) blimey

yes slug heard the humanist moral argument many times. re hereditary thing, tho my father and grandfather are and were both socialist priests, my sister is an athiest and my brother an agnostic, so not sure it always works. and as far as saying you don't need the 2000 yearold stories riddled with inconsistencies, well, i studdied literature and pretty much all literature is like that, despite containing important truths and crucial observations about humanity which progress the human race. As is said, i have chosen to believe everything that Christ said and did, but don't go in for big hallelujah religious experiences.

EVERYTHING HE SAID AND DID

how do you know what he said and did though?

the bible was written many years after his death. Peoples memories just ain't that good!

yes, i know flum, ok should have added everything he said and dis as documented. OK?