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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

do you believe in god?

189 replies

lilsmum · 04/05/2005 22:00

if so, why?

btw i am not looking for a arguement or anything, just intrigued as to peoples beliefs.xx

OP posts:
ruty · 08/05/2005 14:03

no papillom i respect your view totally, just thought you'd left, as you now have!

ruty · 08/05/2005 14:12

off now just`to say yeah kama its shocking how thet hard sell alpha course, slso don't think the leaders are too bright! [sorry if offensive to anyone]

ionesmum · 08/05/2005 14:28

Oh no Papillon! No wonder you don't fancy Christianity after doing Alpha!!!!!! I know a priest who has come across a great deal of hostility from the HTB crowd, even to the point where a colleague was told he was 'blocking the Spirit'. I think one of the biggest concerns I have is with the idea of the 'Holy Spirit' weekend where everyone gets together and 'calls down the Spirit'... too much like claiming control over God to me. That's without the fact that Alpha is so sure of its rightness to the exclusion of other viewpoints.

The sad fact is that Christians are not good witnesses to God's love. The amount of hostility just within my own rural benefice is astonishing. Then look at how we behave over women priests, the homosexual issue, Gerry Springer...We make our God look like a narrow-minded bigot. I have experienced huge love from Christians but know that this is not so for many people.

However, I don't get the idea that because organised religion is corrupt/ineffectual (of course it is - it's run by people - secular society has exactly the same problems)that somehow proves that God doesn't exist. People screw up, not God.

Papillon · 08/05/2005 16:52

Keeping an open mind is the only way we discover anything - Ruty I agree 100%. For me this means that I prefer discover outside religion or labels etc. I like the quantum physics remark... for it reflects what I have been saying about the scope of spiritual development that is out there and not just under one umbrella of faith.

I was a fluent speaker of tongues on the Alpha course and had a good looking devotee lined up ready to be my husband. But I walked away from the boy next door (literally). I did investigate away from their churches and belief structure. My mum had been for a time the Church secretary in our hometown. We had moved away but the same Minister was still there and I got some books off him and went to a day course with him. Still not my cup of tea at the end of the day.

Whats HTB Ionesmum?

sansouci · 08/05/2005 16:57

Yes. It's hard to describe why. I would hate to lose my faith; it gives me so much comfort. It would be like living in a void not to have faith. I never talk about God in RL; too private. I have always had an answer to my prayers, even if it's not what I expected/wanted.

jenkel · 08/05/2005 17:06

No, I dont belive I do. I am christened and both my daughters have been christened, I like the teachings of christianity and try to lead my life based on them, I think they are good rules to follow. But I'm sorry, with all the bad things that happen in this world I find it very hard to belive in god. However, you prove it to me and thats a whole different picture.

I admire people that believe, I think its wonderful how it seems to give them answers for everything bad that happens, rather than me just wondering why such awful things go on.

So i admire and respect people that believe in god whoever/whatever he may be, but I just need some hard proof.

ionesmum · 08/05/2005 17:07

Holy Trinity Brompton. It's where Alpha is based.

sansouci · 08/05/2005 17:12

I don't have answers for much. And the answers I think I have may not be correct. I certainly don't understand how a compassionate God who is said to be Love can allow so many attrocities. Even though I don't have any answers and don't understand doesn't stop me from believing, thank God! I hope that I will understand at some point but I don't think it will happen in this life.

ruty · 08/05/2005 17:30

i mentioned before, so many [not all] bad things that happen can be prevented by us, God has given us so many tools to develop ways of preventing bad things from happening,cures for diseases, early warning systems for natural disaters,and we could easily solve world poverty, but our thirst for power and money usually gets in the way of all these things. Personal tragedies are more difficult to understand, i agree. Having a faith is not an easy way out of anything and it doesn't answer all the questions we have, its just an ongoing jouney towards the truth.

Papillon · 08/05/2005 17:52

Oh, before you mentioned Ionesmum about people being screwed up, not God. Maybe you don´t accept this part of the bible, but am interest in yours or others views. As God kicked us out of the garden of eden (like the parent who throws out the teenager for not following the rules) our dark souls are meant to reconcile and find their way home.

Question: If a parent came on this site and said, ´my daughter is using drugs, disobeying all our house rules, we are on the last straw and on the verge of asking her to leave home. We love her but just cannot live with her ´ Any advice? What would be the MNetters responses?

Just thoughts

glitterfairy · 08/05/2005 18:41

Good question Paps!

Ruty I dont mean to be rude at all although I think God is a belief system just like politics and as such open to scrutiny and at times laughter just like rory bremner.

The reason I think God is love is a wishy washy statement is that it is just that, a name for something. I believe in love as a healing and restoring power, I dont choose to call that GOd or think it has plans for us or invest it with supernatural force.

I do not think that something out there has plans for me. I am in control of my own destiny and choose my path myself.

As far as bad behaviour goes you are right, it is people who mess things up but often in the name of GOd and because they hold onto their beliefs and protect them with force. That is not right either in politics or religion.

ruty · 08/05/2005 19:06

glitterfairy, ofcourse you choose your own path. That is why we have free will. Papillon, i don't think God kicked us out, he made us with both capacity for great good and great evil, and it is up to us to choose which path to take, and how to shape our lives. the garden of Eden is a metaphor for the painful choice God had to make in making us free, sentient human beings. Re your teenager equation, it is not a question of kicking that teenager out, rather than letting them know that you love them unconditionally and providing all the help you can. If they run away, you can't force them into their rooms and lock the door, well you can but it won't work. So God doesn't do that to us either. See the parable of the prodigal son. the Father welcomed him home with open arms. No judgement, just love.

ionesmum · 08/05/2005 20:00

Jenkel, as I said before I can't prove that God exists. But then I can't prove that love exists, that happiness exists. Prove to me that gravity exists! I can't see it.

As for suffering, I don't know why suffering happens. I don't want suffering in my life and have no idea if my faith could take a major tragedy. I most emphatically do not believe that God causes suffering, or wills suffering, or that it is in his/her plan for us that any of us will suffer. At the same time however, I do wonder what a world without suffering may be like. Would I really count my blessings if there was no possible downside? Would I really appreciate dh, the dds, my family, without the always-present knowledge that the could be taken from me at any minute - in this life at any rate? Would I appreciate the fact that I live like royalty compared to the millions in the developing world? Would I want to get off my backside and help if everything was rosy? Without suffering there is no need for bravery, self-sacrifice, kidness or mercy.

Papillon, no I don't view the Creation an dGarden of Eden stories literally, although I agree with ruty that they are intersting metaphors and we still have a lot to learn from them. I don't believe that God has 'kicked us out' but as ruty says, the story of the forbidden fruit and exile from Eden is a metaphor for how it feels to be isolated from God by choosing the wrong way to live. By this I mean choosing evil over good, not non-belief over belief. As for your question on parenting, well, you will get a vast range of answers and I'm sure, many wise ideas. But none of them will be as wise or as loving as God - we only shadow his/her parenthood, and could never approach being like him/her.

Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is what it means for God to be female. I understand through my own journey what it is for God to be Mother, but as we are all made in his image, but not all women are mothers, it's an interesting idea. Well, for me anyway!!!

glitterfairy · 08/05/2005 20:21

The garden of Eden is a metpahor but not about choosing the wrong path. It is about chossing absoutely the right path, the one we are all so scared of, the one where we choose knowledge over ignorance. That is the path which God in all his wisdom would keep us from, all I can say is than goodness for the serpent! I also notice that it is a woman who cant say no. Typcal sexist stuff or maybe just women who really wanted to live without ignorance in a world of our own making.

ruty · 08/05/2005 20:52

i agree glitterfairy Adam and Eve story is sexist, it is written by a man after all! But still has truth if you take out the sexist [human] element. And i agree it is also about choosing the 'right' path [ God wanted us to have our freedom, but that means he can't protect us from everything. We can't say, yeah, i want total freedom, but i don't want anything bad to happen. That's the terrible choice God our Mother and Father had to make as we do for our own children when they grow up.

ionesmum · 08/05/2005 21:01

Good post, ruty.

ruty · 08/05/2005 21:04

glad you like it ionesmum!

glitterfairy · 08/05/2005 21:34

I dont think it is about freedom though I think it is about knowledge and we were supposd to live in ignorance that cannot be right!

ruty · 08/05/2005 21:39

freedom and knowledge, and no, we were'nt supposed to live in ignorance, god set us free with knowledge and free will, he made us so we would [metaphorically] want to pick the forbidden apples,because he made us to think for ourselves.

ruty · 08/05/2005 22:18

just realised i said he. Oops. Falling for all that patriarchal language again. I meant She/He!

bloss · 09/05/2005 01:32

Message withdrawn

glitterfairy · 09/05/2005 06:16

I dont find the hard questions which Christianity or for that matter in other faith poses difficult to dodge Bloss within the context of humanism. All religions ask people to act with respect for others and in ways which make communal living easier and more acceptable. They are, as I have said belief systems just as political ones are.

You are right the idea of a higher power is irrelevant to me as I believe (yes another belief system just like yours but without supernatural forces) that we should make our own way here, where we are on earth. There is no other place to be.

The teachings of the religions of the books have much to be learned from and much to recommend us as ways to live our lives but not in my opinion in order to gain a reward somewhere else but here on earth.

bloss · 09/05/2005 06:42

Message withdrawn

ruty · 09/05/2005 09:20

i agree with you Bloss that countries with a strong Christian heritage are places i'd much rather live, even if i didn't believe in God. I'm often critical of Western Governments, but even in the USA people generally enjoy freedoms some of the world can only dream about.

glitterfairy · 09/05/2005 11:55

Sorry Bloss and yes I was responding to this

"I just found it really interesting how you made your statement, because so many people assert that although they don't believe in God they haven't actually rejected God. But usually if you push a little harder you find that they are simply not interested in a God who might have something to say about their lives which they might find unpleasant."

I didnt misread your post by the way on the genesis thing just paraphrased this "But it's an excellent statement of what Genesis tells us is the continuing problem between humans and God." And my answer reflected that perhaps I had neatly summed up what the continuing problem between humans and God but that I didnt think it mattered as it was not my problem and if it is Gods I am very much surprised that he/she/it cares at all.