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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

do you believe in god?

189 replies

lilsmum · 04/05/2005 22:00

if so, why?

btw i am not looking for a arguement or anything, just intrigued as to peoples beliefs.xx

OP posts:
ruty · 07/05/2005 17:15

just a word about events like the tsunami, god has actually given us all the tools we need to avoid terrible disaters like that - the governments of those countries were toying with the idea of putting an early warning system in [as they have in the more affluent Pacific]which would have cost 17m dollars. they decided it was too expensive. If the richer countries had helped them buy it so many lives could have been saved. Money and power comes in to so many things, famines, epidemics, diseases,many things we could solve, and as God gave us free will he can't always force us to choose the right way.

ruty · 07/05/2005 17:21

and btw papiilon, the billions of Gods on the planet are just the billions of faces of the One God. And ionesmum, i remember being on Iona in the Abbey one summer evening with a young woman priest singing evensong. Lovely.

glitterfairy · 07/05/2005 18:09

"I don't believe God needed Jesus to die in order to make me clean, nor is it necessary to follow Jesus in this life in order to join him in the next."

ionesmum
Well then why believe at all it simply does not matter in that case. Whatever we do we will end up with jesus.

Bloss, my life is in my control and even if your God existed I would want nothing to do with him/her/it. If they had a purpose for my life thats great but my life is my business and I am here to live it my way. I am not interested in this all seeing individual, my job is to create the best environment for my family and try as hard as possible to ensure I do not harm others in the process. I think humanity is important as is the planet on which we live and will strive to ensure that it is a good place, with good people in it. I certainly believe in forgiveness but not because of Jesus because I believe in an inherent goodness in people which only needs help to thrive. For some people this entails believing in a higher being not for me I am afraid.

ionesmum · 07/05/2005 19:21

glitterfairy, to some extent I agree, on the face of it by my beliefs it isn't necessary to believe in Christianity so I can see why you question 'why bother?'. The reason I do is because God loves me, I love him back. I do believe Jesus died for us, but not in order to settle scores on our behalf. And God is just; he isn't head of some exclusive club where only those who are members can get in. His love and mercy extend to everyone, even if they don't want it. As for being decent people without having faith, I believe all love (which is ultimately the root of our kindness and decency) is created by God. It makes no difference if you choose to believe or not, if you have love in your life then you have God. You may leave him; he will not leave you.

ionesmum · 07/05/2005 19:31

ruty thank you. Actually I'm sure I'm far from the truth, I think we are all in for a big shock one day!

How lovely to go to Iona, I'd dearly love to when the girls are older, and Lindisfarne too. (Hopefully they'll have gone off Balamory by then!) I love John Bell's hymns, we had 'The Summons' at both the dds' baptisms. I love Evensong, I used to go to here in our village before I had the dds, there was only about eight of us each month (the services rotate) and I was the youngest by about forty years! I used to get a lot of pressure to go to the All Age service instead but to me it was very powerful and humbling to worship alongside people who'd been doing so faithfully for so many years. And the language is so poetic. The All Age service suits me now I have the dds but at the time I wanted something a bit more thought-provoking.

Papillon · 07/05/2005 19:35

Ruty unlike yourself I don´t see the spiritual faces of the numerous deities out there condensed into One. Except if seen under the spiritual concept that we are all One - God, animal, vegetable and mineral. I see all creatures from Gods to Goddess etc as vibrations of spiritual consciousness all on their own journey. Some capable of vibrating on multiple planes than just the Earth level of consciousness.

True Ionesmum there is a difference between self-awareness and self-absorbtion. Not sure if you are trying to emphasis that to me - or just as a general observation of non-christian spiritual development. I know there are people out there in pain and that pain and the healing process can absorb them, some for longer than others.

Is this one of the places you mentioned Iona
Have not had a proper look yet... do these organisations remain on the fringe elements though? Do they impact mainstream Christianity? I have not seen such churches or meet followers of this kind in NZ. Any other links would be of interest. I am always interested! Tinker might appreciate some info as an apparent liberal Christian (Sorry Tinker couldn´t help myself there )

Papillon · 07/05/2005 19:40

Seems to be an increasing number of books that are based on the theory that Jesus did not die though. Always so many ideas and ways to ponder!

lavenderrr · 07/05/2005 19:57

yes I do because a) I don't believe someone made up the bible,b) who created the higher creative intelligence which people are born with, it is too complicated to be just chance and c) I have very spiritual moments in life where I wonder beyond this time and space and have a gut feeling we are more than just physical entities who are born, grow and die for all of three score and ten and that there is something out there....why create something and then let it die off it is just to hard to believe it is only a material existence..

ionesmum · 07/05/2005 20:05

No, no, no, Papillon, most definitely not trying to emphasise that to you! And I don't only apply self-absorbtion to non-Christian spirituality, it is also very prevalent among Christians, particularly the right wing kind that are so strong in the States and elsewhere. The school of thought is that so long as they are okay with their moral behaviour and Bible study they don't need to worry about anyone else except others like them; after all, by their understanding God rewards us in this life too so the poor have somehow deserved their lot.

Yes, that is the site for the Iona Commumnity. The others are the Othona Community; the Community of Aidan and Hilda; and the Northumbria Community. Othona is probably the least mainstream in its approach, but even so is accepted locally and several churches nearby have regular Celtic services. I have also been on a Celtic retreat nearby. And certainly the Iona Community and the Community of Aidan and Hilda are very Trinitarian and the Iona Community is well-known and accepted by the church nationally. Our hymn book features a lot of hymns written by John Bell and Graham Maul of the Community. Although based on Iona its headquarters are in Glasgow and it has always had a concern for the poor and marginalised. You can try a google or I will try and find the addresses later - am struggling atm with a snotty dd2 on my lap. And look for books by John Bell or others from the Iona Community, Ray Simpson and David Adam.

I know there are a lot of conspiracy theory books around atm but can't say I'm convinced!

glitterfairy · 07/05/2005 20:13

I only leave the idea ionesmum. It seems to me that we are closer than we think but that I refuse to think of anything guiding or being in control. We shape our own lives and destiny. It is for us to decide and we must follow our own paths. I dont need God but yes I do need love and happiness.

ruty · 07/05/2005 22:55

the metaphor behind adam and eve [and a lot of the bible is poetry and metaphor, doesn't mean it doesn't have truth] is that we have free will and that God is no longer in 'control' of our lives. We have to choose our own path. And i do believe God is in every living thing, and that is why every living thing is sacred.

ruty · 07/05/2005 22:56

altho i have to confess to squashing mosquitoes

LGJ · 07/05/2005 22:58

Do I believe in God ???????????

YES

bloss · 08/05/2005 00:23

Message withdrawn

StuartC · 08/05/2005 09:08

Do I believe in god - no.
The various religions have made sure of that.
I'll keep living with my own moral code - it's similar to (probably the same as) humanism.

ruty · 08/05/2005 11:09

Stuart C i agree, the organised religions are all ultimately corrupted because people have abused them to wield power throughout history. this however is no reason to claim God doesn't exist. Its a bit 'cutting off one's nose to spite one's face'!

Papillon · 08/05/2005 13:13

You forgot to mention George Bush the democratic dictator. A man political and economically driven, but also using the Christian God as his witness. So he is unlikely to ban religion or the numerous spiritually beliefs FINALLY historically allowed. Perhaps he is the new era of dictator. The communists tried to ban God, that didn´t work. So the new mostly male Power allows us our freedom of beliefs. Less likely to uprise - espcially as we are too busy watching the show on CNN.

So should we go back prior to 200 years then! No thanks, not this butterfly. History was still brutal then with Christianity involved. These days I am not considered a heretic and burnt at the stake.

Excerpt from a site about The Tower of London: Instruments of Torture Before the 17th century torture of prisoners was a regular part of the routine at the Tower of London.
During the religious ferment that gripped England in the 16th-century, the rack was used freely not only by the Catholic Queen Mary, but by those monarchs who had broken with Rome - Henry VIII, Edward VI and Elizabeth I.

This place looks rather attractive too and interesting to note amongst the tourist diatribe that the London Dungeon brings more than 2,000 years of gruesomely authentic history vividly back to life....and death.

Land Lords / tribal chiefs controlling smaller groups and areas than the numbers dictators can stand over and kill. Still could have your head cut off for not walking into the same direction as whichever moral, political values of the area resided. The majority of the dictators you mention refuted religion. Which was the only moral value resource available to people. And they were allowed little freedom to maintain or develop moral depth.

Now we are allowed to hold our own spiritual reigns and I belief that we don´t tend to do worse on the whole. We can create our own worldview. The biggest barrier for me becoming a Christian when I did an Alpha course was not my pride, nor my flaws. It was the box that would limit my imagination. I question and recognise moral value in much more than Christianity. I recognise and work through fixing fix my flaws all the time, proof to me that I CAN. I believe in evolution of the Self never ends. The Christian understanding does not support me being God to this growth.

I am not angry, enjoying the discussion actually. I never forget to learn, and hold love close to my heart. I don´t assume the position that Christians think themselves better. But when consistently told that my path is wrong, there is only One God - I just cannot agree. Belief and gospel can still be a judgement and I don´t believe in Heaven or Hell. My spirit needs not to fly there.

Child awake, post over.

ruty · 08/05/2005 13:30

oh Papillon please! the Alpha Course? Please don't equate Christianity with the Alpha course. Onlt equate some rather limited imaginations with that. I cannot stand the alpha course, makes me livid. Again, not proof that God doesn't exist, and that christ didn't come to show us the limitless divinity of our imaginations and souls and the social justice that springs out of that. And yes, totally agree about Bush. The devil works in the best disguises.

ruty · 08/05/2005 13:31

hope you bother to read this Papillon!

ruty · 08/05/2005 13:32

don't mean Bush is the devil, just that the devil works in all those that lust after power and money at all costs.

glitterfairy · 08/05/2005 13:34

Bloss - Perhpas I have natly summed up the continuing problem between humans and God. The fact is that it doesnt really mean anything to me though. Not becuase I do not believe in him/her/it but because I am unimpressed by questions of an existence of a sentient being which has authority over anything at all.

You are right that I reject something like that. I am a humanist as I have said before and God or higher powers are of no consequence to me in any way. There are people whom I respect who believe in God but I do not presume to understand why they do or even if they do why it matters at all.

Dressing it up as God is love is to me a neat way of getting out of an argument. That is wishy washy stuff and of course I believe in love and its power but I do not call that God. Your version seems to me eminently more reasoned but just the same I am afraid a fantasy and hocus pocus stuff wrung from an age which thank goodness we have advanced from.

As for God being good the evidence of goodness from organised religion is, as Paps says, all that it usually ends in warfare and bloodshed. Even budhist monks seem prepared to fight over God.

kama · 08/05/2005 13:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ruty · 08/05/2005 13:40

glitterfairy can't you see that just because people do bad things and abuse religion doesn't mean God doesn't exist. I'm going to have to\leave this post because there are two extremes here and both have made their minds up. Keeping an open mind is the only way we discover anything. And God being Love is wishy washy? Only cos you want to see it that way. Its actually much bigger and much more complicated in its connotations, perhaps one days we'll all get a glimpse of what is about.

ruty · 08/05/2005 13:49

a scientist sais recently that the way we understand the universe now is the way a dog understands quantum physics. I'd like to extend that to our understanding of God.

Papillon · 08/05/2005 14:00

why Ruty are you worried I don´t read your posts No need to get upset!

I had plenty of childhood exposure to Christianity. An Alpha course was most recent brush tis all. Pentecostal which was abit more extreme and did like my questions AT ALL. I did see lots of love in God and felt it - so can understand this sensation. It was the people that put me off. I cannot get with the constant disagreement and arguements that Christianity attracts. I am happy to mingle with the new age, pagan, shaman, agnostic types because I feel more love and not arguements. Acceptance of open book Ways and not just One Way.

Bit hurried... cannot write more now.. off into the Sun