Can you be a 'Christian' and not believe in God? (sorry - long)

[Moomin]

I'm been having lots of thoughts recently about God/religion/life and would appreciate some thoughts. I was christened and went to Sunday school as a child but never really enjoyed it so my parents didn't force me to go. We were never a church-going family but most family wedding/christenings/funerals were CofE, like a lot of people I spose.

I went off orthodox religion in my teens and became very anti-God as I objected to the way that the bible and Christianity seemed to be interpreted by many church-goers that I came across. I also became very anti-Catholic because of the negative experiences many of my friends had and the press about Catholic paedophile priests.

Ive been married twice and both times had civil ceremonies as I felt it was very hypocritical to marry in church that meant little to me. Dd had a very informal naming ceremony with no-one officiating, more like a family/friends celebration really.

However, I've been revising my thoughts since dd got a bit older. I think that, as a whole, the basic Christian ethos of 'do unto others' is a very sensible way to live your life, and I'm very keen on the teaching of tolerance of other religions. I feel that it's hypocritical to celebrate Christmas and Easter without telling dd of their origins and in some way I've been treating them as 'true'. In fact, I do believe that Jesus was a real person, a prophet, I believe in the basics of his teachings and I also believe in the existence of 'God', although I don't necessarily believe in the way it's been translated or interpreted by the people (men) who wrote the Bible (which I think has been the tool of much manipulation in the past). I believe that humans need something to believe in and that their soul (for want of a better word) makes them different to animals in having this need.

I am seriously thinking about getting dd christened next year, when I will have no.2 as well. But is it wrong to have dd christened in a church so that she is given a 'base' for her life, even though I am picking and choosing the aspects of this religion that I feel apply to me/us? I won't want to attend church regularly, although I do visit churches and cathedrals for thinking time and also to admire the feat of the architecture!

Views and thoughts greatly appreciated.

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I do believe in God, although I rarely go to church. I used to go every sunday until I was about 16, but fell by the wayside when other activities became more attractive to me. I knew I wanted DS1 christened in some way, but like MorningPaper I found the thought of standing up there renouncing the devil and promising to bring DS1 up as a christian a bit ridiculous, as I didnt think I could live up to it. I dislike the thought of saying things in front of people that I don't mean. However the church I used to frequent, at which my Dad is an elder, is the UNited Reformed church, and it introduced a blessing service for children whose parents had similar misgivings to us - we knew we wanted to introdce our children to the church but didn't want to make promises which we felt would be meaningless statements to us. (And more's the point, to his two godparents who were not 'believers' but people who we trusted with all our hearts to be a positive influence on his life). The blessing service basically involved a public introduction fo the child to the church, asking for God to bless him and look after him, and asking the godparents and congretation to help all they could in bringing him up to be a good person (I paraphrase of course!) It was a lovely service, and said exactly what we wanted to say. It was spiritual and most important of all it was not empty and meaningless to those who were wishy-washy believers like me (and the vast majority of Christians I know.)

Bloss, you know my reasoning by now. But I am obvoiusly an inadequate Christian with a flawed faith so will shut up on the subject. I just don't have the energy.

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bloss, I'm not taking it personally, I'm just very weary at the moment. Thanks for the prayers!

ionesmum, have been to iona, my dad [a priest] very hot on celtic christianity, just wish more churches and priests embraced it. and as far as the bible is concerned, one must remember that the NT was written many many years after Christ's death, and each person who wrote it had their own interests, as did those who wrote the OT. I stick to Christ's own words as recorded, and you'll find he's not very interested in rigid rules and fear. Unconditional Love is not an 'easy' or weak concept, it is the most difficult of all.

I think its possible to be saved before death without having had a life as a Christian etc; the reason is the parable of the workers, the ones who came in at the last hour got the same wage as those who had toiled the whole day,but I don't thin its an excuse to delve headlong into debauchery with the hopes of a converson at 80! lol. Jesus did believe in strict rules its in the word, he said he didn't intend to remove one jot of "the law".What he said in essence was that if you keep the 2, you automatically keep the rest.Afterall,Jesus was Torah observant and went to the temple,he kept the moeds as well as did the first century church.The OT law/rituals made the Israelites physically/ceremonally clean the blood of Christ made us spiritually clean when we confess/accept.As the word says His grace is "sufficient" but he also said "Go and sin no more" many times.So yes the forgiveness is there for everyone but at a price,submitting to the will of God (this is obviously from a Christian stance).I know a lot of ppl have a prob. with the general church stance on homosexuality and stem cell research and abortion but there are scriptural commands and reasoning for that and no need to post them here 'cos sure most are familiar with them.I do think Christ died for everyone and forgiveness is available for everyone,but not everyone is willing to "crucify their flesh" to be able to step into the grace that would be freely theirs...wow has this thread taken on a life of its own or what? lol it has been nothing if not interesting though.

problem is, and my father knows the bible pretty well, is that so much of the bible is open to interpretation. And 'sin' is used by many of the self righteous [don't mean anyone here] to condemn and judge others. Something Christ abhorred. Christ came to revolutionize the OT, that is why he said 'turn the other cheek' rather than 'an eye for an eye' and 'let he who has not sinned cast the first stone'. Do not want to get into a theological debate DixiExpat, i respect your views, but i do not believe homosexuality is a sin becuase it says so in the OT, it also says do not eat shell fish or any hooved animal there too.

And somebody is born homosexual, that does not mean they are inherently evil, and if they choose to stay in a loving monogomous relationship with somebody i am 100% convinced that Christ would give his blessing. Sorry, thread going off on a tangent, won't go on!

V. interested in hearing about your dad, ruty. It was through Celtic Christianity that I finally made my way to being able to go to church. I wish it was more widely known about and usedinm churches esp. for younger people.

Agree with you 100% on the gay issue too. Our God is a God of love. He didn't create gay people and then expect them not to love. Where love is, so is God.

Exactly ionesmum!

One of the reasons we named our son Aiden was because of Celtic Christianity. I'm still exploring my spirituality, but I do find CC fascinating.

This is a good one - I have found out that the church where my MIL is a member if its wives group has a gay vicar and lived with his partner in the vicarage. I've spoken to several people who know him and they say that he is very open to discussion about interpretations of christianity and God and it would be worthwhile having a chat with him initially, with the possibility of his church being the one we chose IF we have the kids christened. I suspected (and it seems I may have been right) that if he is gay, which is so obviosuly and openly his in his parish) he may be a little more sympathetic to the more liberal ideas and questions I have. I'm going to ring him this wek or next.
Appreciate all the commenst and thoughts. It's been very interesting.

apols for dreadful typos

Chrsit did maybe 'revolutionize the OT', but he didn't abandon it. If homosexuality was considered a sin at the time of the OT, why would God change His view of it? Surely He is a constant and unchanging God? And considering homosexuality as a sin is not the same as judging and condemning people.

Some dead horses being flogged on here!

Glad you've found a sympathetic ear Moomin. Sounds marvellous - I'm quite jealous! Hope it goes well. xx

Sorry if they're 'dead horses' for you, morningpaper. I've only just joined mumsnet, how could I know?

Sorry evansmummy I was being facetious. I wasn't specifically referring to your posts. Only dead horses in the 2000-year-old sense, I'm sure they don't regularly crop up in here!

Hello by the way. I'm the best-ignored embittered liberal who props up the corner of the bar shouting occasional obscenities to the nice customers. (And today's a bad day for us woolly liberals ...)

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Bloss maybe the gay thing could be a new thread because it's the sort of thing that puts OFF a lot of people who are starting to think about exploring their spirituality ... and Moomin didn't ask for an exposition of Jewish purity laws...

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maybe there should be a whole section for purely controversial issues for anyone up for a good debate lol. I suppose those would automatically be covered by religion and politics though!

won't go on about it cos i agree this is really a new thread but bloss there are a lot of respected theologians out there who would interpret the scriptures differently to you! And thats the problem, fundamentalists don't believe in interpretation, and other schools of thought do. Hope you stick to ev erything the OT tells you to do, otherwise you are using interpretation yourself.

In three gospels, Matthew Mark and Luke, Christ is asked about the commandments. He says 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets. 'Matthew 22 v34-40. Incidentally the Archbishop of Canterbury says the references to homosexuality in the bible are really talking about promiscuity, there are no condemning references to love and monogomy.

last thing ans i'll shut up. On many occasions in the NT, Jesus responds to people's criticisms of the disciples not following every detail of the OT law by showing how the law of love not only fulfils but reinterprets the law. Have not time to get references now but will provide them later [on another thread?] if needed!