Can you be a 'Christian' and not believe in God? (sorry - long)

[Moomin]

I'm been having lots of thoughts recently about God/religion/life and would appreciate some thoughts. I was christened and went to Sunday school as a child but never really enjoyed it so my parents didn't force me to go. We were never a church-going family but most family wedding/christenings/funerals were CofE, like a lot of people I spose.

I went off orthodox religion in my teens and became very anti-God as I objected to the way that the bible and Christianity seemed to be interpreted by many church-goers that I came across. I also became very anti-Catholic because of the negative experiences many of my friends had and the press about Catholic paedophile priests.

Ive been married twice and both times had civil ceremonies as I felt it was very hypocritical to marry in church that meant little to me. Dd had a very informal naming ceremony with no-one officiating, more like a family/friends celebration really.

However, I've been revising my thoughts since dd got a bit older. I think that, as a whole, the basic Christian ethos of 'do unto others' is a very sensible way to live your life, and I'm very keen on the teaching of tolerance of other religions. I feel that it's hypocritical to celebrate Christmas and Easter without telling dd of their origins and in some way I've been treating them as 'true'. In fact, I do believe that Jesus was a real person, a prophet, I believe in the basics of his teachings and I also believe in the existence of 'God', although I don't necessarily believe in the way it's been translated or interpreted by the people (men) who wrote the Bible (which I think has been the tool of much manipulation in the past). I believe that humans need something to believe in and that their soul (for want of a better word) makes them different to animals in having this need.

I am seriously thinking about getting dd christened next year, when I will have no.2 as well. But is it wrong to have dd christened in a church so that she is given a 'base' for her life, even though I am picking and choosing the aspects of this religion that I feel apply to me/us? I won't want to attend church regularly, although I do visit churches and cathedrals for thinking time and also to admire the feat of the architecture!

Views and thoughts greatly appreciated.

hang on a second, DixieExpat! You say, " As for Christmas and Easter its a lie believed by waay to many that they have Christian origins". You seem to be stating that believing Christmas and Easter to be Christian festivals is a lie! Yes, some people, who clearly don't have your depth of knowledge of world religions may be under the misapprehension that Christmas and Easter were founded in Christianity.Most Christians, however will happily accept that the festivals that were already celebrated were highjacked by Christians for the purpose of having a regular date to celebrate Christ's birth and resurrection. The celebration of Christ's birth is not a lie, neither is the celebration of his resurrection. OK, so Christmas trees and easter eggs may not be Christian symbols, but the festivals themselves are perfectly valid.

that's a bit harsh dix, u might as well say u cna't be a chritian if u don't believe in god/ go to church.

That's just what she is saying, munz.

I must say I find that a bit narrow minded, and as I don't want to get into an arguement about it i'll leave the thread with the thought of moomin - it's up 2 u hon, what ever you decide i'm sure will be fine.

Hi Tissy,

Oops =) not trying to upset anyone. Its absolutely wonderful and right to celebrate the Glorius event of the Birth of Christ, Messianic Christians and Jewish Scholars set the Birth of Christ approx. September and it coincides with the Feast of Tabernacles or (Succot).The Christmas season would more accuratly celebrate the conception/annunciation. I think as Christians its our duty to be "wise and cunning" the Bible says so.
www.messianic.com/articles/dates.htm
is a good place to start for more detail on how they came to the conclusion.
Yes I strongly believe in the Resurrection as fact.There are many festivals rooted in Judeo Christianity that Christians of today can celebrate.
biblicalholidays.com/spring_holidays.htm
What I can tell you is for me personally and from my understanding of The word, we are not to "follow after the pagans". The OT time and time and time again gives the command to not learn the ways of the pagans and to not even let the names of their gods be on our lips. God calls it an abomination when "pagan" festivals and practices were added to what he commanded. Its very clear in the books of Kings,Chronicles and Samuel. I just feel if we claim to follow Christianity we should know what our own faith is, through and through, what its origins,blessings,curses and commandments,precepts etc; are.I used to celebrate Halloween,Christmas and Easter like anyone else, on Halloween our churches had hayrides,at Christmas we had lit trees up by the altar and the sunday school kids hunted for Easter eggs during the service. Now that I know what I know about it, I would be acting against my faith to celebrate those for what they are.I am not trying to insult anyone that chooses to do so. Just stating my opinion and why I refuse to celebrate those holidays in the secular sense. I'll be happy to celebrate Channukah with my children and exhange gifts that way. My in-laws are Church of Scotland (non-practicing), they have Christmas dinner,presents and trees, we go to dinner with them and the baby gets her presents. I keep in mind what the Apostle Paul said about not being a "stumbling block" to people who choose to stict to strict/kosher dietary laws,observe holy days and keep the covenant of circumscision. As the saying goes, we can be "in the world but not of it".Hope that clarifies my answer without sounding snobbish...'cos I'm not lol I promise.

Munz,
not even remotely trying to pick a fight.
You are asking me how I can say someone cannot be a Christian and not believe in God?!
Ok...I find that you even ask that perplexing, maybe it would be easier for me to understand if you explain why you believe that one CAN be a Christian and NOT believe there is a God.I definitly am interested to hear how you come to that conclusion.

Okay, sorry about that!

Moomin, it is possible to believe in the Trinity, the Resurrection, the Virgin birth and all the rest without believing the Bible to be the inviolate word of God. There are a lot of things in the Bible which have been changed to make a point, or to 'speak' to its intended audience. For example, the NT makes a big thing about how Jesus was killed by 'the Jews', yet crucifixion is a Roman punishment. If the Jewish authorities had wanted to, they would have had Jesus stoned. Jesus was crucified because, as a popular prophet, he was a threat to the Roman authorities. But much of the NT was written for a Gentile, mainly Roman audience, and so the emphasis is changed, with Pilate washing his hands.

I have only begun to study the Bible and theology, but have been a Christian all my life. I have more and more questions and don't expect to find anwers in this life. God is so very 'other'. But Jesus has been my lifelong companion and to look clearly at the Bible and admit that it cannot all be true, and yet still believe is, for me, a testament to how strong God is despite our attempts to make him in our image and to twist his words to mean what we think they should.

As I have said on this site before, I worship a man, noyt a book, however important.

If you decide to proceed with a baptism for your dd, you will find thta different churches and priests vary wildly in their approaches, even within the same denomination. I suggest you look for a church known for its liberal or liberal anglo-catholic approach.

I really don't wish to cause offence but it's reolies like Dixiexpat's that turn me right off the whole thing. I wasn't calling myself a Chrsitian in the first place; that's why the word was surrounded by inverted commas in the thread title - the idea was to think about if someone who follows the general life-rules as set out by Jesus (and many other prophets of different religions I imagine) can claim some part of an orthodox religion. I guess they can't, although I'm sure that other posters from earlier who informed my of the CofE approach may be dismayed. I choose not be dictated to - and that is my main objection to orthodox religion. I think I'll go my own way....
Thanks for all the many thoughtful contributions.

I make no apologies for my opinion or my strict Faith. I do however apologise for the amount of hostility I have apparently stirred up here.
I seem to have the only opinion that doesn't cater to what you were wanting to hear,did you not ask for our opinions? One aspect about Christianity is sacrificing our own flesh,stepping out of our own comfort zone and commiting to God and making Him the centre of our life.
Clearly that isn't what you are interested in as an answer.Thats your decision but why should you be intolerant of people like me who do stand firmly by their faith no matter how uncomfortable it may be at times? Isn't that in itself something rare these days no matter the faith?
The post asks if one can still be a Christian and not believe in God...I suppose the easiest answer I could have given you was "No".
I am not intolerant of other Faiths, what I am intolerant of is the amount of people that identify themselves as Christians and couldn't be further from it as evidenced in their life style. Though some here may take offence in me being so blatant in the other posts it was never meant as an attack or slight on anyone in anyway whatsoever. I am getting tired of explaining that. I am not sure how an explanation of Pagan holiday origins, which is what my first post was about had to turn into so many detailed explanations and apologies.I am slightly astonished that everyone is so angry at me for telling the truth.I dunno what to say except, relax a little, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs.Seems the issue most of you have with me is the fact that I explain why I believe what I believe...I should hope you would appreciate seeing it from another persons view even if just curiosity rather than being nasty just because you don't agree with it.
"its religions like Dixies"? well thats a bit prejudiced.But no offence taken. By all means, go your own way, throw 10 religions in a blender if you like or even start your own all I was saying is, Christianity is Christianity and there are a certain set of rules that make it what it is, if you don't agree with those ex.The Apostles Creed, then you aren't one, end of story.You shouldn't be resentful towards me for saying so. I dunno why it has turned into such a "big deal". Sheesh!

Calm down Dixie.

"its religions like Dixies"? well thats a bit prejudiced.

Read Moomins post again - she said replies like Dixiexpats and to be fair, you did come on a bit strong.

eh heh ok misread there soz.

forgot to add, if I come on a bit strong, maybe it has more to do with the fact that I am American.My cultural background alone even aside from religious makes me rather blunt.So, strong faith and no tact maybe? Ah well.

you got it.

I've said it once and I'll said it again. I make no claim to be a Christian.

The whole thread is about whether, if I feel that life is better if we folow certain moral guidelines, and if those guidelines conform to an orthodox religion, then is it Ok to consider this religion as something a person might want to take on as part of their life?

DixiExpat - I find your approach very aggressive and if that's the way your religion makes you feel and act then it's one I don't really want to pursue. You think that you are being condemned for your strict approach to religion - well I feel that you have condemned me for considering that there might be ways into religion that aren't as strict and dictatorial as the one you follow. You make me feel like I'm just someone who has no right to look at all aspects of religion, whether liberal or hard-line, if it does not conform to your own understanding of Christianity. I'm not criticising your religion, but I am critical of your approach which I feel has alienated me in my quest for ideas and different points of view.

Your views are starting to come across as rantings, which hasn't been very helpful.

i had a door to door sales christian once tell me that becuase my dh didn't follow the teachings of christ - he wouldn't be allowed into heaven. i honestly believe that good people will go to heaven despite the christian rantings of " you gotta be a member first". and if i turn out to be wrong - i think i would rather not go t o a place that doesnt allow good people in despite what they believed on earth.

i truly believe that god isn't as small minded as we teach him to be.

moomin if you dont believe Jesus was the son of god - then your not a christian. however it seems to me that you are a very spiritual person who "gets" the general life principles set out in his teachings ( rather than labour and contort every word) so that being said - are you now at a loss of how to celebrate or thank god - like going to church - or is this not bothring you?

for example i dont go to church every week but sometimes i feel the need to despite the many horrors of the RC church. but i dont want to go anywhere else.

do you know what i am saying?

moomin - the short answer to your question, can you follow a particular path and still call yourself a Christian without subscribing to a particular set of beliefs is, yes. I know plenty of Christians who are very much on the start of their journey, discovering what a belief in God means to them and learning who he/she is. Many churches try to proscribe what it is exactly that its followers have to believe, which causes much heartache. It's why the CofE is so attractive - it is a broad church and embraces evangelicals and catholics, liberals and charismatics. It sounds to me like you are on that journey and I hope that you can find a home where you can express your spirituality. I too struggled for a long time with the issue of church-going but have now found somewhere that I am happy to raise my children in. Please don't be put off - I think a faith like Dixie's is in many ways a beautiful thing but it is not how God speaks to everyone and not everyone will feel comfortable with that certainty. (no offence meant here, Dixie).

Remembering you in my prayers.xx

Moomin - you are obviously very intelligent and believe me, there are lots of intelligent Christians who don't believe a lot of 'Christianity.' These are not just Christians at the start of their Christian journey (as Ionesmum points out) but I would draw your attention to a lot of Christians who have spent their whole lives studying the topic and still find themselves doubting in 'God' or 'religion.'

I think it is wholly possible to belong to a Christian community and believe very little of 'Christianity'. The religion that we belong to is 99.9% determined - not by our intellectual search for truth - but by the country and culture in which we born. Christianity can be seen as one way of many of expressing a spiritual search for God. Those of us who are part of the Christian tradition hope that it's a bit nearer the truth than other religions. But we don't know yet!

DP and I have about 30 years of studying theology and acting as church ministers between us. We go to church every Sunday. However, when we got our daughter baptised neither of us found the promises easy to make, or even easy to believe. "Do I reject Satan and all his works?" What does THAT mean?! I nearly bellowed, having to stop myself from starting a four-hour exposition of how that sentence could possibly be meaningful.

However, I want my daughter to grow up with a cultural and spiritual home in Christianity - to have somewhere where she can sit and learn at the feet of thinkers and people of faith who have lived and learnt far more than her, and to feel, when she is at points of crisis in her life, that there is meaning beyond her, and a million things in earth and heaven that she hasn't even dreamed of.

Thomas Aquinas (13th century - the greatest theologian in Christian history) had a vision at the end of his life, after which he declared "All I have written is so much straw!" If the greatest theologian of all time can dedicate his life to seeking God and still find it all coming nowhere near to the truth, I think it's okay for the rest of us to feel like that.

And Ian Hislop (rarely is he mentioned in the same sentence as Thomas Aquinas) summed up the Christian life for me when he said, "Some Sundays I sit in church and think, 'This is all bullshit. It's always been bullshit and it always will be bullshit.' And some Sundays I sit there and think, 'Oh my God, This is all there is.'"

So I'd say yes, get your daughter baptised. Start her on a faith/doubt journey and you'll give her the best spiritual start in life that a parent could possibly give a child. Good luck. xx

Reading your original post Moomin, I feel I could have written many parts of it a few years ago.

I went off orthodox religion many years ago for similar reasons to you. I did marry in church but felt (and still feel to this day) very hypocritical for doing so - I bowed to family persuasion, including the fact that my father was extremely ill and it pleased him to see me do it.

The basic ethos of 'do unto others' is a part of many religions, not just Christianity and is indeed a good ethos by which to live your life. I feel, as you, that it is hypocritical to celebrate events such as Christmas or Easter without looking back at their beginnings and choosing to celebrate them accordingly. It was indeed one of the things that set me on my journey of reading and discovery.

I also believe in Jesus as a person, maybe even as a prophet. I believe in the existence of 'God' (a good a name as any, though not the one I normally use). I don't believe in the Bible - to me it is a book written a couple of thousand years ago, whilst the world has existed for far longer.

I do believe, as you, that humans need something to believe in.

I adore visiting churches and cathedrals for their sense of serenity, peace and beauty.

The upshot of all this waffle - I am a Pagan. I feel that my soul has finally found the peace it has strived to find for most of my life.

Unlike others here, I would say no to christening/baptising your DD unless you are sure in your heart that Christianity is right for her. If you, as an adult, are so undecided now are you really in a settled enough place to make that sort of choice for your DD? Raise her with an interest and respect for all peoples faiths and believes. Teach her the old stories, be they biblical or from other religious texts. Teach her morality, patience, ethics, respect, love. But leave her choice of religion to her, when she is old enough and wise enough to make her own choices.

Apologies for the long post , just wanted to give another perspective.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as 'leaving the choice of religion to her'. Either people have a religious/spiritual background, or they don't. IME it is quite rare for people who have been brought up with 'no religion' to choose a religion when they are older. A religion isn't something you choose. It is something that you learn and that changes and develops throughout your life.

It's not a choice between no religion and ramming a religion down her throat. It is possible to bring a child up within a religious tradition and allow them freedom to question it and leave it as and when they want to. However, if you don't given them any spiritual grounding, it is only a lucky few who will find a 'spiritual home' as adults.

After all, we don't all refuse to send our children to school because we want them 'to choose' whether they want to be educated when they are adults, do we?

Who said anything about a choice of no religion or ramming religion down their throats? And are you assuming that my children have no spiritual grounding?

As to your question regarding education (flippant as it may have been) - no I don't refuse to send my kids to school, but then again I don't staple them into their school uniforms and expect them to wear them until they are adults and can choose their own clothes.

All I was saying is why is there a need to raise them in any 1 religion or faith, if you have no firm conviction as to your own beliefs.

Thanks for the last few fantastic posts. I feel like I've at last got something to go on!

Something has struck me about what morningpaper has just posted and also from an earlier post from Pruni - about a child having some sort of spiritual grounding as they grow up. I was very much as morningpaper describes may happen to dd - I was christened and brought up in a largely Christian way (as explained in my first post) but rejected it as I grew older. I was lucky that I was in a household that let me express my views and follow my beleifs at the time with no pressure to conform or think otherwise - to 'find my own path' really, .... and here I am!

But it also made me think of the 9 year old me when my mum was killed in an accident. I don't remember much about "God's role" in what happened (as in blaming or questioning a bigger force than we could understand) but I do remember feeling quite safe in the knowledge that at the time I believed in Heaven and I was happy that my mum would be with all our other rellies (and pets!) that had died and it gave me a lot of comfort. I guess now, looking back, it also helped my dad out to have this as a background to explaining or coming to terms with her death, in that it helped me and my brother in our simplistic view of the world. I used to pray at night and want to talk to her and I remember feeling quite cheated when I couldn't hear a reply, as I had heard people saying that if you ask God for something eventually he will talk to you. Of course, I didn't understand that concept at the time.

I would like to think that dd, as mp says, has a place that she can turn to at times when she feels she needs time and space to think when she gets older.

Thanks for that. Will go to bed a bit happier tonight with those thoughts.

this is just a quick response Moomin - haven't read the whole thread. I am kind of similar except that I don't think I believe in God (I know that's pretty fundamental but so much else of what you said struck chords). I was very interested in religion as a teenager and went to university to study it - not because I was religious but because I found teh whole thing fascinating and because I believed (and still do) that we can learn an awful lot about ourselves,as humans, from religion. Now that I have kids I also see a cross over between the religious and cultural and toyed last year with taking dds to a Christmas carol service, because I felt that those wonderful songs, the smell of a church at Christmas, the special feeling a church has are part of my culture, part of my own upbringing. I didn; do it but it's still a thought for next year. I also agree that the key Christian tenets of how to live life and huge amounts of Jesus' teaching accord with my feelings about morality but I struggle with the God bit (and some bits of doctrine, but I tend to think of those as interpretation) Having studied Christianity quite a bit (and maybe true Christians would disagree vehemently) I comfort myself with the thought that the only God I can conceive of (if not actually believe in) wouldn't mind that much and would be most concerned about how I am in my dealings with others. All a bit of a ramble ay? But no, I don't think it's wrong. And if it is I think G would forgive you.

Message withdrawn

Moomin, a lot of what you are saying strikes a chord with my feelings of a couple of years ago. Sorry to plug a book here.. but I think you might gain a lot from reading Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsh. It gives you a whole new perception of God.. and to me (although not everyone).. it made more sense to me than anything else ever has! These books (this is the first of a trilogy) have made God into something (as opposed to somebody) that I can identify with as really existing... a God without requirement (which I never understood!)..a God who does not judge (I could never imagine that He did!).. a God that is All That Is -and that includes us!

I urge you to give it a try.. and if it's not your thing, then nothing lost.

SJ x

And re: Pruni's recent post.. yes, from what I have read about them, I would agree that the Unitarians are barking more up the right tree than most!

SJ x

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