Can you be a 'Christian' and not believe in God? (sorry - long)

[Moomin]

I'm been having lots of thoughts recently about God/religion/life and would appreciate some thoughts. I was christened and went to Sunday school as a child but never really enjoyed it so my parents didn't force me to go. We were never a church-going family but most family wedding/christenings/funerals were CofE, like a lot of people I spose.

I went off orthodox religion in my teens and became very anti-God as I objected to the way that the bible and Christianity seemed to be interpreted by many church-goers that I came across. I also became very anti-Catholic because of the negative experiences many of my friends had and the press about Catholic paedophile priests.

Ive been married twice and both times had civil ceremonies as I felt it was very hypocritical to marry in church that meant little to me. Dd had a very informal naming ceremony with no-one officiating, more like a family/friends celebration really.

However, I've been revising my thoughts since dd got a bit older. I think that, as a whole, the basic Christian ethos of 'do unto others' is a very sensible way to live your life, and I'm very keen on the teaching of tolerance of other religions. I feel that it's hypocritical to celebrate Christmas and Easter without telling dd of their origins and in some way I've been treating them as 'true'. In fact, I do believe that Jesus was a real person, a prophet, I believe in the basics of his teachings and I also believe in the existence of 'God', although I don't necessarily believe in the way it's been translated or interpreted by the people (men) who wrote the Bible (which I think has been the tool of much manipulation in the past). I believe that humans need something to believe in and that their soul (for want of a better word) makes them different to animals in having this need.

I am seriously thinking about getting dd christened next year, when I will have no.2 as well. But is it wrong to have dd christened in a church so that she is given a 'base' for her life, even though I am picking and choosing the aspects of this religion that I feel apply to me/us? I won't want to attend church regularly, although I do visit churches and cathedrals for thinking time and also to admire the feat of the architecture!

Views and thoughts greatly appreciated.

Oooh, big big thoughts for this time of day!!!

I will give you my background... I was raised going to sunday school, but neither of my parents were particularly religious (mum was raised catholic, but they left the church whilst she was growing up). I have been left to choose my path, which I have now. I am not a christian, but I do have my own beliefs and such (the basic "do unto others" pretty much sums most religions up, and it is in mine too).

Whether it is "wrong" to have your children christened, only you can decide in your heart, but for my part, I felt that I wanted to raise my child to learn about as many religions as possible and then to make her own choice. You can still teach them how to be good people, without giving them a specific religion to follow. Does any of that make sense?

With regards to Christmas/Easter etc... there are other celebrations at the same times such as Yule and Ostara, which you could also add in, so that the Christian and Easter stories are mixed in with other stories, and you don't feel like you are treating them as "true".

xxx

Message withdrawn

I think that you should read the christening service with reference to the vows you will be making on behalf of your child. If you feel uncomfortable saying the words then you should think twice about christening your child. Being a christian is not about being sure of everything - nor in my view about believing or agreeing with everything in the bible. You can have faith and ethics without becoming a member of any established church.

Personally I felt a great sense of relief when my ds was christened. It was very important to me and my husband. I take ds to a pram service every week.

Moomin, I see where you are coming from & that you have given this a lot of thought. In the baptism service the priest asks you whether you will "turn to Christ" & you have to answer "I turn to Christ". You have to promise to bring up your child in the family of the church. I know that an awful lot of people do stand up & make these promises without any intention of keeping them, but from what you've said I don't think you would be comfortable doing so.

So FWIW, I don't think you should have your dd christened. She can always do so later if she feels that way inclined. (We left the church 8 years ago after 2 priests we had been very close to were jailed for offences involving young boys. DS1 decided independently that he wanted to be confirmed & did it all himself through school when he was 14).

Having said that, it's something only you & your DH can decide.

well i'm not religious in the sence of christian althou i've been christaned/ got married in the church, the idea of christening for us, (or at least my mum) was that if we weren't christened our souls would forever wonder and not find peace so to speak, so she had us christened so we would be able to go into 'gods' garens etc..

my persoanl views are v similar, yes I felt a hypocrite being in a church to get married, but by the same notion my DH really wanted that as opposed to a civial ceromony.

my children will be raised (and call me mad if u will) as 'nomads' so to speak I will teach them the christian/catholic views (we have both in our family) but i'll also teach them about the greek myth, wiccan pratices etc.. and really 'open their eyes' so to speak and let them decide on the religion they want to pratice, DH is of a similar view, the myth and greek gods are fairly big with us. I think the only one which DH prob wouldn't like would be muslim, however mainly as we don't know much about it, (again thou if our child chose that path it would be fine with us)

Technically, no, you can't be Christian without believing in God. To be a Christian is to try to become Christlike which requires belief in him, God the Son.

However, it is very plausible that you can believe in the teachings of Christ - as a Christian, I would say that's because you have been made in the image of God.

As for your DDs, I would think that exposure to church life can only be a good thing for them. Christening for the sake of it without taking the promises serious is probably not going to do a lot. Just coming to church and getting to know other Christians, and worshipping together is the main thing.

Why don't you go along to some churches and see how you feel?

moomin - from your post at least i have exactly the same view as you - although i express it differently.

religeon and faith although linked should not be mixed up. you can have faith without a practising religeon. i believe faithis more important. i believe religeon is man made. i believe the bible is not the word of god - however i believe the general principles of the new testament ae good ones to live your life by. i do believe they are man made.

i don't believe in a church hierarchy. although with the passing of PJPII it made me re-think about having someone to play with te big boys at the top influencing policy.

i believe you dont have to go to church to talk to god. i believe that Jesus was a humble person and would be appaulled by the wealth of the church.

i believe that when i make the effort to go to church and take the kids - god knows that for me its not a ritual, its not like having breafast - its a great effort. therefore i believe that god will appreciate the effort for me to get off my arse and go say thank you.

i believe mass is not about self flagulation with communion at the centre. i think mass is saying to god " hey look i got of my fat arse to come and see you becuase i just wantd to say - thank you for the wonderful family i have and the greatness i touch and the potential i see - even the problems i face. thank you for my great family. i know could have done this at home but i wanted to make a special effort" a bit like buying someone a gift on a special day - to show you love them you make the effort. i dont make the effort every week.

i often have crisis of faith - at the moment i haven't spoken to god for a few weeks. but i want to be a good person and bring my kids up to be good people.

There are many ways to bless you child in spirit... with I believe to be the most important aspect rather than connecting the child to a religion...

A naming ceremony is one way. That one is an e.g. based on American Indian beliefs in the spirt.

The spiritualist churches also have naming ceremonies.

Hi Moomin.

In the CofE there is a "Thanksgiving for the birth of a child". This is specifically intended for people who don't want to have their children baptised because they aren't convinced by Christianity and don't want to make hypocritical or meaningless baptismal vows, and certainly don't intend on going to church regularly, but who do believe in God and want to give thanks for their child in a way that makes a connection with God and the church, without subscribing to all the small print IYKWIM.

Some vicars would want to do the ceremony within the context of a 'regular' Sunday service; others are happy to do 'private' family events at the church - especially for families who aren't regular attenders.

This might give you a third option between baptism and a naming ceremony completely outside of the church...and might also enable the church to be a 'base' for your childrens lives, without being the sole religious context in which they are raised.

I hope that helps.

Hi, Moomin. You say you believe in Jesus and in God. Is it the way the church interprets certain things that bothers you? If so, join the club! I can''t believe how far the church (all denominations) has come from the message of the humble carpetnter all those years ago. I also believe the Bible to be the Word of God, but that you have to approach it bearing in mind that it comes to us through people, and they have twisted it, added to it and distorted it. I believe Jesus to be God's Son who died for us and I therefore believe no church has the right to exclude anyone. I also believe that as a Christian I need the fellowship of other Chrsitians, that I need to worship God and serve him through his church, so in fact I am very active at our local church. If you feel uncomfortable because of the patriacal side of the church, I can give you the title of a good book that re-examines the Gospels from the feminist point of view - it's a bit of an eye opener! - and remember that God is both Father and Mother - the Bible does make this very clear. Only you can decide if you'd be hypocritical in having your children baptised - I agree it's a good idea to read the service, and also maybe buy a book on baptism. I have a friend who is a humanist who comes to our pram services because she wants her dds to grow up with a Christian moral view.

Let me know if you'd like any more info. Remembering you in my prayers.

We have quite a few Thanksgiving services in our church, but the families who opt for these are the most "on fire" ones. I don't think I've ever come across a visiting family that would opt for one of these instead of baptism, even though it might be recommended by the clergy. I think if the family feels under pressure, they will just try out another church.

wow,
i havent read the entire thread, just the mesaage by moomin.
you have beasically summed up every religion going. they all preach the 'do unto others' ethos, lead good lives. be good to your neighbours etc.
its people who have corrupted them to use for there own agendas.
if you are not happy with catholisism, then look into some of the other world religions. its worth a shot.

Yes, most religions have The Golden Rule, but that's because we are all made in the image of God, even if we don't believe in him.

Thanks to all those who have made contributions to this thread so far - it's exactly what I hoped in that it has provided me with much food for thought. I was just having the exact same discussion with dh as ionesmum has very eloquently put for me - that I do think it is the interpretation of the 'word of God' that I have the most trouble with. I actually said to dh that if Jesus was the man who I have interpreted him to be, someone who preached forgiveness, tolerance and love and someone who was very positive towards women in a time when they had little support in society, then surely he would freak out if he could see how some branches of the church and some people have distorted his words and thoughts!

Dh asked me to consider whether I would be happy sharing the same God as some of the far right Christian movements in the US (for example) and I do see his point.

If we could re-name God as something that did not have any connotations, say if we called God '' instead; and if I said that represents what I believe to be the key to being human, the thing that separates us from animals, the ability to reflect and try to make life better, and even what makes up the 'soul' of a person, then I believe in *!!

Sorry this is a bit heavy -so many thoughts and questions!

Ameriscot2005 - can you explain what you mean by 'on fire'? and why would a family feel under pressure? Would it be from one particular priest's/vicar's interpretation of God/the Bible?

On fire for Christ basically means the most outward and evangelical behaviour - very fundamentally biblical.

As for pressure - I think a lot of vicars are troubled when a family approaches them for baptism - they may know that the family are entering into baptism for show, or for other reasons, and so they are obliged to offer them Thanksgiving which is a more appropriate blessing for their situation. However, some people are programmed to believe that Baptism is superior and what they want, and they don't appreciate the suggestion (pressure) of Thanksgiving.

Going off on a slightly different track here... why does god seperate us from animals? I have always believed that there is deity in everything (from humans to frogs to rocks), and that we are all eternally linked together through this. To me, humans have a different level of consciousness and understanding, and it could be that that gives us our soul....

We are above animals because we are created in God's own image.

Ah, was forgetting that aspect of Christianity... I don't have an image for deity, so that would be the difference

Do you know what though? I don't believe in the Creation, as the Bible states it. I'm an evolutionist as far as that goes. In fact I feel that much of the Old Testament is a series of metaphors and explanations of science that people just did not have the capacity to understand in those days and putting it down as the 'word of God' made people feel more secure and less helpless in the world.

Therefore, I think that our separation from animals is a kind of evolutionary thing; that we were the ones who developed our brains that bit further than our closest animal 'relatives' and from these brains we also developed a need for something other than survival - a need for faith, if you like. In my opinion, we recognised the need and filled the gap with our interpretations of God (or *!).

If you try to block out all the connotations that you get when the words God or religion are mentioned then you could attribute 'religion' to anything that drives a human being; that gives them comfort or that makes them thankful. Therefore, you could say that for some people, money really is their religion.

And it's thoughts like this that make me think that I couldn't be part of the Christian church as I cannot accept much of the OT, and that I strongly believe in evolution. I get very offended when I read that many schools in certain areas of the US have abandoned the teaching of evolution and will not accpet alternatives to the story of Genesis. Am I allowed to just pick parts of the NT for my convenient take on Christianity?

By the sounds of it you would be best off just following your heart, teaching your babies about love, honesty and respect, and going with the bible as "and some people also believe this...". I'm not sure Christianity allows for much picking and choosing

The idea that God / Great Spirit / Energy is a human form is a conception created by the human image of Self... God can be everything and anything. He is the rocks, the trees, the animals (including humans) So we humans are not above anything. To think otherwise I reckon is a lack in our perception and relationship, as to what the Great Spirit IS

How did you put that so much more eleoquently than me?

flamesparrow, what youare saying is very similar to both the hindu religion and some of the american indian beliefs.
moomin, i think that you are not really allowed to pick and choose. that is the definition of faith. although i am being a hypocrite for saying that, as i do pick and choose.
have you read the da vinci code? because there is an excellent interpretation in there of what happened in the early church. very beleivable.

in the islamic religion, it is a bit easier as the Quran is the word of God, and is not sent through people, as the bible has been. the prophet muhammad was illiterate and uneducated, yet the language of the quraan is the most eloquent in the arabic language. one of his 'miracles' as different prophets had different miracles.

i dont believe in evolution. i became anti evolution when studying genetics at university. i dont think there has been enough time elapsed in the universe for so many random events to create something as complicated as a single celled amoeba, let alone a human, who has the ability to choose between right and wrong, ( which i beleive to be the reasson we are different to animals.
sorry long post!

moomin, many branches of Christianity don't believe in the Creation story. That's not to say that we can't learn from it - it gives an idea of the order of things - that we have a duty to rest on one day a week, that God made everything (although not in seven days), that we are made equal in God's image - that is we have roles that reflect those of God, and that we all have a divine spark inside us, and that we have a duty to care for Creation.

Sorry, need to go - will post more later!

Sorry to hear that you are in such confusion.I was raised Pentecostal in the Southern U.S, by my early teens I studied many religions.I had many questions that I felt the church never answered or were waved away as a child speaking nonsense and that I wasn't supposed to ask any questions. Over the next 10 years I began doing yoga,began following the teachings of Paramahansa Yoganadaji.I also joined friends at Buddhist chanting groups and at one point was a vegetarian for 7 years and had an altar to Krsna.Via my thirst for knowledge or some would say "hole in my soul" that didn't seem to get filled now matter what I found even led me to Wicca,but wicca wasn't enough for me, so I started studying Ceremonial Magick which led me to the Kabbalah, I found Aleister Crowley had some of the better writing on it but unfortunatly that led me down an extremely dark dark dark path. Thankfully I can say I have been a Christian for 7 years now.I must say...there is no way possible anyone can claim they are a Christian and not believe in G-d the father.Afterall, to be Christian means to be Christlike and follow his teachings. Yeshua (Jesus') sole purpose was/is to Glorify G-d the father/creator by offering us His Grace and mercy. So if one doesn't purpose to glorify and worship their Creator yes, its hypocritical to say you are a Christian.Thats not rude, just fact. As for Christmas and Easter its a lie believed by waay to many that they have Christian origins, infact they have Roman and Babylonian origins. Dec. 25 was celebrated as the rebirth of Nimrod (he was also worshiped as Baal,Bel,Osiris,Jupiter and Tammuz among other names). His birthday was celebrated by placing gifts at the foot of an evergreen tree,the tree was decorated with silver and gold. As for Easter,even the name itself is of pagan origin.May poles,eggs and rabbits...honestly what does that have to do with crucifixtion and resurrection? Nothing. Its based in fertility rites and, in phoenicia Astarte was the goddess associated with Spring.There was also a Teutonic goddess of the dawn known as Eastra among other names,Her name was derived from the ancient word for spring: "eastre." When Constantine declared Rome a Christian Empire, they kept their holidays and called them Christian, something G-d warned against all throughout the OT.I know that probably only adds more confusion but let's be honest here, if you are talking about getting to the roots of the origins.In the post below regarding Koran vs Bible, many Christians wholly accept the Bible as the infallable word of God. The Torah as the history of the Jews,the Prophets as God's direct word,including the law of Moses which is included in the Koran correct? The NT is seen as the New Covenant, a blood covenant since in OT no atonement could be made without blood.Aside from the prophetic book of Revelation (keys to which are in the prophets)and the 4 gospels,the rest of the NT is the history of the first century church. So not only is it "The Word", its also a book of History,Morals and prophecy. Maybe if you are willing to see the different parts of the whole book its easier to understand and even accept, but please, by all means, if you don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of G-d born of a virgin come to shed his blood to atone for our sins...don't claim to be a Christian, for goodness sake,there are enough feel good philosophies out there to choose from if all you want out of it is the "do unto others as you'd have done to you."The closest you can find to 1st century Christianity is Messianic Christian congregations or Messianic synagogues. You'll find they do not celebrate Christmas or "Easter" as the secular world knows it. I know this is a bit heavy for what your post was about but if you want your daughter to be well informed about Christmas and Easter, you may wish to know more about where the secular versions of them came from if thats how you celebrate it.To each their own since we all have free wll right? Whatever you decide is solely up to you and only you.Its difficult to claim a specific faith for your child if its one you are not sure of yourself.I will keep you in my prayers and hope you find the clarity you are looking for in this issue.