What exactly does the Bible say about homosexuality?

[beansmum]

And why do some Christians make such a big deal out of it when Jesus didn't mention it at all?

It is kind of on my mind at the moment because of a comment the woman preaching on Sunday made about 'truth not tolerance', standing up for the 'truth' and not just trying to 'hug everyone and tell them they are ok'.

Jackstini - "I think God sent his son Jesus as the people of the world were not following the original 'instruction manual' very well. I guess the teaching of Jesus and the eventual NT is therefore a kind of update?"

I agree - but I don't think God looked down and said "Oh dear, it all seems a bit hard for them, I hadn't expected that. Let's see if I can come up with a different way."

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. So it's reasonable to expect the NT to explain and complete the OT, rather than to contradict it.

Peachy - I agree that we need to look into our hearts - our reason, emotion and conscience are God-given too. But if my heart contradicts what I believe that God is saying in scripture, I will go with scripture. I will trust God rather than myself.

And I know that my understanding of scripture will be influenced by all sorts of factors, some of which I won't be aware of. And so I will read books from different approaches, and I'll have conversations like these! But I still think that my fallible interpretation of scripture is a better guide than my fallible heart.

As to following the NT over the OT - I guess that in practice I do prefer the NT - most of it is so much easier to understand! But in theory, while I will read the OT in the light of NT teaching, I believe that it is all God-breathed and all true.

And of course, the most compelling arguments for the bits I find hardest are in the NT anyway!

Jackstini - just read both your posts again, and seen that your first one kind of said what I said anyway. So feel free to ignore me!

Do you know, I think I do trust my heart over what scripture appears to say if there is a conflict between the two. If after a lot of thought and prayer my heart is telling me that something is not a sin I assume that I am reading the scripture incorrectly, or that the person who wrote the scripture put things in there that weren't from God. I think deep down we all know what is right and wrong. I don't try to love my neighbour, be faithful to my partner (when I had one) etc because God tells me to, but because I know it's the right thing to do. My relationship with God helps me make the right choices more often that I would on my own but without God I would still know what I should be doing.

I certainly trust my conscience, my experience of God, and the overall message of the Gospel over any specific passage in the Bible. I can (usually) tell when I am making choices because it's what I believe is right, and when I'm making them because it's what I want. So if after thinking and praying about an issue I believe something which goes against a particular piece of the Bible, but is compatible with the overall themes of what Jesus taught, then I conclude that the Bible is wrong on that issue.

For me, the interaction of reason and my relationship with God will trump scripture and tradition every time.

Much the same as the two last excellent posts, with the added recognition that we know the Bible is the hapters of the Canon that were selected by Man, which (to me) always puts the fath in that which I know is God given- my heart, conscience, instinct, whatever name you give it- over text.

Agree with Peachy & AMIS. If I am confused about an issue I can feel the answer to my prayers in my heart.
I do sometimes think about the scriptures that were deselected and indeed the ones that were likely lost/damaged/destroyed over the years and wonder if they may have 'filled the gaps' and given greater understanding?
Cornflake - glad it made some kind of sense - I don't always make sense to myself but know that God understands me at least!

Some of the deselected texts are available to read online, sacred texts website has some including the Gospel of St Thomas iirc.

There is a FAB DVD called 'The Christ Files' I have just finished watching - its Australian, I'm not sure if you'd be able to get it here. But it sbrilliant at explaining how the Cannon was formed, why those books were 'chosen' (they actually weren't chosen as such, but were in common useage from when they were writen, whereas those not inth cannon were not widely accepted as trustworthy, right from the beginning...they can substantiate this with other documents...fascinating stuff)...and also highlights the massive differences between the gnonstic gospels (Thomas, Philip etc) and those in the cannon, in terms of historical reliablility. Its really good, if you can find it anywhere.

The very real problem with setting your own experience as a higher authority than the Bible (ie, God's own voice), is that, in effect, you are making yourself God.

If we can't rely on the Bible as a fixed source of knowledge about God, accesible to all, then how can we know Him? I'm not saying experiece counts for nothing, because we do all have personal and real relationships with God...but if I say God says X, and you say God says Y, and they contradict, then we can't both be right can we...? its ilogical and impossible.

The Christ Files - I can't recomend it highly enough...brilliant.

Personally, I can't be sure everything I read in the Bible is God's own voice, some things I am fairly certain are not God's voice. No, absolutely certain.

I suppose I trust God to show me the truth if I ask Him to and if I am honestly willing to accept it. I know He can, so why wouldn't He?

This is an issue I have really been struggling with recently. My faith has been severely challenged over this issue. I believe that God is love and Jesus taught us to love one another and not to judge. I had a "Christian" man say to me the other day that he would rather his child was disabled than gay. Another told me of "passages in the bible where cities of gays were destroyed" and that "gays are trying to turn the world gay and if we don't stop them eventually it will be" People pick and choose what they want to take from the bible. I think the quote from the West Wing earlier summed it up perfectly. I have obviously lived in a naive little bubble for a long time but I am now really questionning whether I want any part of a religion that creates this sort of nonsense.

Beansmum, he can, of course...in fact, he has...through the prophets (and Jesus himself said he has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it), and through Jesus. And its all recorded for us in the Bible. Brilliant! The God who created the world has no trouble ensuring that the scriptures are not 'ruined' by the fallible men who wrote them down, and secular history proves without any doubt how very well the Biblical texts have been preserved over the generations (again...get The Christ Files if you can...link below).

Aquasea, I'm sorry to hear you've had some unhelpful conversations like that. I really recomend you read the Bible (not that I assume you haven't) and base your opiniion of Christ's 'religion' on that, not on what one Christian says.

There used to be a billboard outside a church near me:

"Don't stay away from the Church because its full of hypocrits...there is always room for one more"

meaning that of course Christians can be idiots sometimes, just like everyone...but that doesn't mean Jesus is.

Astrophe- the DVD you saw, was it made by a religious foundation by any chance? Asking as partly surpried I didn't see it (Theology was the major component of the 3rd year of my degree), and also just because of the usual bias.

The actual story of which were chosen is complex- as with everything, different parties argued for different inclusions, after (and this is key) much prayer on the matter. It is certainly likelyb that the most used chapters will have been included, but we do not knpw if some were omitted for political reasons (the whole idea of the Gnostic Gospel) or if some had already been lost by then.

Personally I would assume that The Bibe is pretty eliable but just being himan teaches me that nothing mankind has had a say in is ever untainted by politics or ambition.

Aquasee, it must be difficult to deal with people like that- as a Mum who has 2 disabled children in my brood, my reply would be that I do not mind if my boys are disabled or gay, God has sent me the strength to love them as who they are.

Astrophe- you say God could stop mankind changing the Bible- but isn't that the problem with free will? God needs us to find our own way to Him, and if the Bible has been corrupted (and academic evidence suggests that has happened in translation alone), God wuld surely hope that our faith would enable us to see at the core of the message? (I use heart but mean instinct, trust, brain, whatever- there's a Hindu term, Atman, which sums it up better- that bit of God which is in us all).

It is only natural of course that we will differ, but as a Minister friend of mine said 'A Christian is not what he says, butb how he lives and thinks'. She is highly evangelical but when it comes down to it we differ on so few points, and share so much more.

Sorry- it sounds like i am trying to pull apos apart, i'm not honestly- it's good to be challenged, esp, as it is sometimes hard to combine the academic learning with personal faith

In a similar vein to Astrophe's recommendation (from her description anyway) - The Books the Church Suppressed written by Michael Green, an evangelical Anglican. I think it was either written or updated as a response to the Da Vinci Code. It's fantastic!

Peachy - "Personally I would assume that The Bibe is pretty reliable but just being human teaches me that nothing mankind has had a say in is ever untainted by politics or ambition."

In which case, why do you think that your own heart is the best guide to God's will?

(Not really having a go - I know we're arguing from different paradigms, and I don't honestly think either side will convince the other!)

It's good to be challenged

Because I suppose we cannot know the inner motivations of people long dead who contributed to the book, whereas I know that my genuine desire is to live to God's will, and I believe that is how He guides us- a bond which others cannot influence.

exactly what I was going to say! but I would have taken twice as many words and made half as much sense

A sincere question for those who say that they would always trust the Bible over what their heart/conscience/gut tells them:

If you believe that the Holy Spirit lives within you (which I presume you do, if you have that view of the Bible), why do you rule out the possibility that He is able to speak to Christians today and deepen their understanding of complicated issues that the Bible does not deal with in a complete way.

And when someone "knows in their heart" that something in the Bible seems iffy, do you not think it is possible that that is a manifestation of the Spirit's guidance?

I have always had a problem with the idea that the Bible is the entire revelation of God. As if He is frozen in time, nearly 2000 years ago, and unable to say anything new now. Despite the fact that we, as a human race, live in a very different world. If God is really God, why would He limit himself to speaking through the pages of a book?

In a nutshell, that's why I have drifted away from conservative Evangelical churches into a more liberal environment, where people's personal experience of God is given a bit more credence. (And which allows for the possibility that with all we know now about human sexuality, possibly Paul's words to a Roman word are now a little bit out of date ...)

Can I ask a question? A genuine seeker-after-truth question? If God is all knowing, and all benevolent, and a Father figure - the "Abba" of the New Testament rather than the vengeful God of the Old, why on earth would he make people whose way of expressing physical love with other consenting adults was anathama? And why would he ask his children to believe things and follow a path which causes them pain without explanation? I wouldn't do that to my children - why would He do that to His?

Sorry - when I said "make people" I actually meant "create people"

Smithagain - I completely believe that God speaks today, guides us by the Holy Spirit, and gives us a deeper understanding of complicated issues.

If someone knows in their heart that something in (their interpretation of) the bible seems iffy, that could very well be the Spirit guiding them to think again about the issue.

But when the bible is clear on an issue, and people with good minds, who love God and are seeking to discern his will, believe that this really is what the bible teaches, then I come to the conclusion that this time, what my heart is telling me is not from God.

It's not that God limits himself to speaking through the pages of a book. It's that he is the same yesterday, today and forever, and he doesn't contradict himself.

seeker - I don't know. I wish so much that I did. Because, on this one, the fact that God's ways are so much higher than our ways just leaves me feeling empty.