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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

What exactly does the Bible say about homosexuality?

221 replies

beansmum · 15/07/2008 21:09

And why do some Christians make such a big deal out of it when Jesus didn't mention it at all?

It is kind of on my mind at the moment because of a comment the woman preaching on Sunday made about 'truth not tolerance', standing up for the 'truth' and not just trying to 'hug everyone and tell them they are ok'.

OP posts:
cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:16

mp - I love that bit so much!

PeachyBAHons · 16/07/2008 16:19

warning: immenely long post alert

aka my script basuis for a uni presentation on the matter LOL

Script for presentation: Homosexuality, Anglicanism and Christian Ethics.

The past sixty years has been a period of immense social progress. All aspects of society have had the chance to benefit from developments such as the NHS and benefits system, and perhaps partly as result of this greater social security, marginalized groups have moved into the mainstream. We have had a female Prime Minister, black and other ethnic minorities have legal protection of their rights, and gay people are widely accepted in many parts of the community and increasingly represented in the media.

However, whilst both ethnic and female groups are well represented (Church statistics showed that 244 of the 478 clergy ordained in 2006 were women ),
and accepted at least to a degree by an Anglican Church that has a reputation for being patriarchal and slow to modernise, the gay community still finds itself at the heart of moral debate and, some would argue, discrimination. Christians actively preach the value of ministering to the marginalized and those removed from society because of their behaviour- murderers, paedophiles, rapists- yet the newspapers scream of potential damage to the Church in headlines such as ?Worldwide Anglican church facing split over gay bishop? when one gay Bishop is ordained in America.

The debate over homosexuality within the Christian Anglican faith is not one that is easy to pare down to the basics. Many sources quote the Bible, yet how definite is the Bible on the issue? Most of the very few references are at best incidental, and also tend to be located in the Old Testament, and it can certainly stand note that it is noticeable that whilst many of the laws in Leviticus are not only ignored but considered abhorrent in modern times, those useful in the quest to denounce homosexuality are held up as essential guidance for all Christians. No matter what Leviticus Chapter 12 says, I have not yet met a woman who plans or has made a sacrificial offering of a lamb following childbirth- or an Anglican who chooses not to eat pork or shellfish. So why the attention on Leviticus 18 which states ? Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.??

There are of course other Biblical passages that are held up to demonstrate God?s dislike or prohibition on homosexuality. Starting with the earliest of the Biblical texts, examples include the tale in Genesis of Sodom. The men of Sodom are struck blind because they demanded of Lot, ?"Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them." And they choose to refuse his offer instead of his daughters.

Where is the explicit referral to sexual intention, if we are to base or influence our judgements of a large section of humanity on the passage? Sodom- or Sodomy- may well be an accepted term for a male gay sex act now, but that comes from the paragraph, rather than informs it. It is also disturbing surely that the moral focus paid to this passage has been on what the men of Sodom might do, as opposed to what lot was prepared to offer his daughters for? Even if we did decide personally to accept this passage as guidance for our judgements, can we really be as blinkered as to accept moral guidance from a man who offers his daughters up to the mob? There is also a clear distinction to be made here between a loving gay relationship where sexual activity is part of the expression of a mutual bond, and what would appear at best to be gang rape in a society run on strictly patriarchal terms.

Leviticus 20 states ?13If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death? . Is this really an attitude that should be carried into modernity? Recently, the Archbishop of Canterbury broached the topic of Shari?a law and one of the biggest objections given in response was the example in Shari?a of punishment of adultery by death. Yet that is exactly what is being proposed here if the ruling was followed through! The same argument that was used as a reason to oppose Shari?a is being used to justify the anti-gay beliefs of some Anglican Christians.

In contrast, what do the Gospels have to say about homosexuality: the answer is immediate, explicitly, nothing. Whether Jesus? silence on the matter is taken to be a natural acceptance of the non-tolerance practised in his society at that time, or simply as a lack of recognition of the subject as one of importance, there is no definitive answer, only speculation.

How, then, should we try to interpret the New Testament on homosexuality, especially modern day gay relationships, where the key factor is not the rape and perversions identified in the Old Testaments, but loving partnerships formed on the basis of mutual attraction to provide the same intrinsic experiences as a heterosexual relationship, excepting procreation although increasingly even that is changing. Companionship, support, mutually exclusive sexual partnerships, security- these are not limited to straight relationships, but are part of monogamous love across a broad spectrum.

Jesus may have been silent on sexuality, but he certainly was not on the subject of love! Jesus may be accurately referred to as the prophet of Love, for it was core to his preaching and philosophy. What is it that differes the teachings of Jesus from those of the ancient Jewws who went before him? It is this: the Jesus Commandment-
?"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Nowhere in this does Jesus specify ?but only if you are straight?- or any other criteria. The love of Jesus is supposed to be all welcoming and non judgemental. If Jesus accepts the company of Mary Magdelen, a woman who would fall foul of Jewish Orthodoxy in so very many ways, there is no reason but to assume that his doctrine of love extended to all Humanity.

This Commandment is not an isolated text; equally significant is the quote from Matthew, ?You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

So not only does Jesus instruct that his followers should love their neighbours, it also states that on this shall hang the law: perhaps this could be seen as over riding Leviticus?

It?s also worthy of note that Jesus instructed his followers ?let he who is without sin cast the first stone?, meaning that only those who are sin free can judge another persons actions. Nobody is without sin, therefore the correct path under Jesus should surely be to love one another regardless of their sexuality, allowing for any judgements to be made on the day of judgement?

Post Jesus, we do of course have the writing of Paul in Romans, which some Theologians take as a very clear condemnation of homosexuality. This may be the case indeed, as the Theologian David Malik would certainly insist; however Paul was a product of the Jewish society of his day, and at best only interpreted the teachings of Christ: he also existed in an era when Rome, with it?s tradition of homosexual relationships, was still riding high and therefore perhaps had wider, conversion led motives in his opinions? We shall never know. There is also suggestion by some sources that the text does not refer to same sex relationships at all, but to shrine prostitution, or idolatry.

Of course, no debate about ethics should hang upon quotes from a book, however sacred that text may be held. Debate must also focus on the realities of life within that religion, and the religion that gave birth to the rise of anti homosexual feeling in Christianity was its predecessor, Judaism, for Judaism takes the teachings of the Old testament as doctrine, and does not accept those within the New Testament that may be used to qualify them. Judaism developed at a time of great social development, when a strong imperative was the desire to increase the religion in number and therefore strength and presence.
Pre- donated gametes and adoption, a homosexual partnership could not fulfil this aim and it is easy to see why it may be held in less regard than a traditional marriage of opposite gendered partners resulting in children. As well as the growth of the faith, welfare of the older generations was a huge concern in the nomadic tribes of the era, and this was traditionally provided for by sons and daughters. It is only natural perhaps that one would not encourage any behaviour that would likely greatly increase ones own suffering in old age and infirmity. Today, however, we have a different society- pensions, social benefits, healthcare- and the same concerns simply are not as relevant. Indeed, today grandchildren are not guaranteed within a heterosexual relationship; neither are they impossible within a gay one.

The general questions that need to be asked, then are these two: why, when society has moved on to a new, more inclusive level that allows the ordination of women for example, is it still unacceptable for a Minister to make his own decisions about the exclusive and loving relationship he or she may choose? And why, when Christianity has managed to adopt such a separate identity from Judaism in so many ways, has such stigma clung to what is perhaps the most innate of ones personal characteristics- who one is attracted to?.

Most of all, why is the Anglican Church allowing such divides to develop over this issue? No doubt when Jeffrey Johns, who withdrew from the position of Bishop of Reading in the face of much criticism, withdrew the Anglican community hoped that the issue would go away for some time at least. Not so; the appointment of Gene Robinson to the position of Bishop of New Hampshire in the Episcopal Church of the USA has re-opened the debate in a way that rages onwards. African Churches cannot accept him and refuse to withdraw from alliances; the Archbishop of Canterbury invites him to attend the Lambeth Conference only in the capacity of marketplace delegate, unable to attend worship or debates and still the Ugandan Bishop refuses to attend- which is somewhat ironic, as so does Gene Robinson! Should not a Church founded on the notion of love be looking to find mutual, common ground rather than bickering over lifestyle decisions? As Bishop Robinson himself says- ??It makes me wonder: if we can't sit around a table and study the Bible together, what kind of communion do we have and what are we trying to save?" .

The Church aims to be a universal faith, reflecting the needs of all within its care. Yet humanity survives because of its variations, not in spite of them. In conclusion then, I would submit two passages: the words of the Thinking Anglicans website:

?We know that the health of our planet depends on the maintenance of our biodiversity. The same may well be true of Anglicanism. Our tradition is one of expressing faith through the cultures of our people. Consequently, our theology and ethics have often been shaped by pastoral care and concern. In a worldwide Communion, this is bound to lead to diversity and to suppress this diversity is to inflict a high cost on the freedom of the human spirit??

And of course, those words which Jesus found so meaningful- ??"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, ? If we base our ethical decisions upon this notion, how wrong can we possibly go?

morningpaper · 16/07/2008 16:26

It is fine to be opposed to homosexuality: as long as you are also going to oppose divorce and remarriage (because Jesus was DEFINITELY clear about that).

You are also going to have to resort to saying that (a) God creates people to live frustrated sexual lives, which makes God a bit of a monster and/or (b) that all non-procreative-model sex is wrong - i.e. also masturbation and oral sex, etc. This is (crudely) the Catholic view.

I cannot understand why Christians feel it necessary to maintain this position. Sex was a very different kettle of fish 2000 years ago. St. Paul lacked our understanding of sexual relationships and sexual development. He could not have envisaged a society where you could fall in love with, and set up family with, someone of either sex, and not face any objections, (or hurt anyone).

Christianity is about the importance of self-giving love, respect, loyalty, and a desire to see other people grow to their full potential as human beings in God's creation. This should be affirmed wherever it is found.

PeachyBAHons · 16/07/2008 16:29

oi MP

you just paraphrased my post in less than 57,ooo words

LOL

morningpaper · 16/07/2008 16:30

woolly liberal anglicans all sound the same Peachy

it's the beards

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:36

I think divorce and remarriage is another very complicated issue. I haven't thought it through enough to pronounce on it. But, as with homosexuality, I would want to be clear that my position was in line with the bible. I do aim for consistency.

I don't agree with your straw man position of the christian options for views on sex, but I do entirely agree with the sentiment behind it.

I'm not sure that sex was entirely different 2,000 years ago! As I understand it, homosexual relationships were very common as an addition to marital relationships. I doubt we could understand that cultural situation any more than Paul could understand ours.

But I believe that God is capable of using Paul to write truths that apply in both cultures.

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 16:40

cheers cornflakegirl. It is very difficult yes - but thats why I bother posting on these things - because occasionally you do get people who are actually interested in finding out what makes intelligent people believe the things they do.

MP - good point. You need to read the Bible in an integral way. Not all books are meant to be read the same way (ie, as I'm sure you know, Song of Songs is poetry, whereas the Gospels are eye witness accounts...so quite different), but you can't pick and choose.

I do think the Bible teaches that Christians, once married, are married for life (except in case of abandonment or death). So if a Christian married couple seperates (which I believe the Bible allows for as an non-ideal but inevitable-because-of-sin occurence), they are still married in the eyes of God, and so should not remarry.

God is not a monster. People have frustration and pain in their lives (for miriad reasons - some derectly related to their actions, many not) because the world rejects God's loving rule (sins), not because God takes pleasure in human suffering. God's ultimate plan, as outlined in the Bible, is to recover humanity by forgiving the sins of those who turn to Him.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:42

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you". If we base our ethical decisions upon this notion, how wrong can we possibly go?

I think the answer is very wrong! We're fallible human beings. Just think about advice like putting babies to sleep on their tummies. Loving advice, based on the information they had. Then we learn more, and it becomes very bad advice. We can do what we think is loving, and just be plain wrong.

And that's without even taking into account the warped, selfish nature that we have.

If our own moral compass is all we have to go on, then we just have to make the best of a bad job. But if the bible really is God's eternal word to us, don't we have a duty to try to follow it?

PeachyBAHons · 16/07/2008 16:47

Maybe thats the key- the Bible as God's eternal word to us is an Evangelical pov, but not one many hold- the Bible to me, and a great ,many non-Evangelicals, is acollection of tales about God, jesus, and history. Essentially to me the OT esp. is a reinterpretation of historical events through a Judaeo-Christian viewpoint.

You use examples such as putting baby to sleep and theya re good points; but surely someone who is truly trying to share gooda dvice would take the time to research answers to ensure they are giving the safest information? Shouldn't this be something that ones moral compass should refer you to?

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 16:48

Agree cornflake.

Can I just add, that I don't think either issue (divorce, or homosexuality) are 'key' to Christianity, except in the way we read the Bible. Is the Bible God's word, useful for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness, or is it not? This is the issue that the Anglican Church is really deaing with at the moment. The homosexuality 'issue' is one manifestation of the bigger Biblical Authority issue.

I'm answering these questions because people here are asking them. I don't generally see my stance on homosexuality as a key point of my faith - most of all I want to now and serve Jesus and share that with others, regardless of their sexuality, race, whatever.

KayHarker · 16/07/2008 16:52

Peachy, that's pretty much what we said a bit further down, actually. It's all going to come down to how you view the scriptures.

I am so totally on the fence with that right now - on the one had I'm reading the official evangelical line, and thinking 'But why is homosexuality a sin when it doesn't actually hurt anyone?'.

But on the other hand I'm reading the theologically liberal position and thinking 'Which bits do I judge are from God, and which bits aren't? Just the bits I agree with? What's the point of that then?'

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 16:53

I don't really understand the liberal pov on Biblical authority though. If you believe that God created the world, sent Jesus to save humanity from their rejection of him (or perhaps liberals don't beleive these, on the whole?), then where is the difficulty in beleiving that same God could (1) inspire the Bible, and (2) know the best way for humankind to live? (Apart from the obvious problem of not really liking what the Bible has to say)?

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 16:54

It is really hard hey hayharker

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:56

Peachy - I agree - and before I was an evangelical, I felt pretty much as you do.

My point about babies sleeping was that 20 years ago, putting them to sleep on their tummies was researched, thought-out advice. But there were factors that they didn't take into account, because they didn't know about them. And so they were wrong.

Similarly with the moral compass, we can take the time to think very carefully. But we don't know what the factors are that we don't know about.

Hence my position on homosexuality. My well-reasoned opinion is that there's nothing wrong with it. But God says it's wrong. So there must be another factor that I don't know about.

(Obviously, given your different start point, I'm not expecting you to agree with that!)

Youcanthaveeverything · 16/07/2008 16:57

I haven't read the thread yet, but will when I have more time tonight.

But thought I'd add quickly, that our priest(Catholic)told us that everyone is too hung up about sex, and that there are SO many more imortant moral issues that he wished everyone would give as much consideration to.

I found that quite refreshing coming from a priest.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:58

Astrophe - I think your second post answers your first post. The difficulty is because it's hard.

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 16:58

kayharker - are you in a good church which is helping you look into this?

Does this help?:

29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deut 29)

...or does that just make it harder?

I've been praying for you his arvo, will keep on doing so.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 16:58

Youcant - I think we reached a consensus on that about 4 pages ago

KayHarker · 16/07/2008 17:00

Yes, it truly, truly is. I'm a deeply unhappy person right now, and it's largely down to the mess my life is in direct response to faith-based choices I've made.

Right now it looks like God set me up to live a life I don't fit so that I could practice patience. And yes, I know I'm a crappy sinful worm, etc. so 'how I'm made' doesn't necessarily give me an out, because I might be bisexual, but I'm also a selfish cow, and I don't get a pass on selfishness just because I was born that way.

meh. I iz having a bad day.

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:01

Yes cornflake, you are right. It still doesn't cut the mustard for me though...if God can do all that , then surely...?

But yes, I certainly acknowledge it is hard.

morningpaper · 16/07/2008 17:01

For me, if the Bible say something that is blindly illogical in my understanding of a loving God, then reason tells me that tells me more about the time of writing and not what God LITERALLY WANTS NOW.

e.g. I don't for a moment think that there was ever a time in history where God approved of smashing babies' heads against rocks, whatever the Psalmist might think.

The homosexual 'issue' is not about Biblical authority, however. Otherwise the church would be up in arms about divorcees, and it isn't.

The Bible is clear about divorce: if you do it, and re-marry, you are living in a terrible state of sin. But most people now think differently: we are more forgiving, actually, and we understand that a life-long relationship is not largely about owning land and a woman. We have higher expectations of our relationships (positive christian expectations in many ways) but we are also therefore more understanding of the fact that these relationships can break down, and that people want to love again.

So we are understanding and forgiving about remarriage, DESPITE the Bible. But we are not understanding and forgiving about homosexuality. Because we think it is a bit yuck when men stick their willies into other men. And that's about the end of it, really.

Youcanthaveeverything · 16/07/2008 17:02

I did say I hadn't read it.

But I agree withthe consensus that was reached 4 pages ago.

Unfortunately it's not the general consenus in the Christian community.

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:03

KayHarker, CAT me if you want to talk offline. I don't know if I can say anything very useful, but if you need an ear, or a shoulder, please do

Peapodlovescuddles · 16/07/2008 17:04

Leviticus, possibly 16, something along the lines of 'men must not lie with men' and possibly a bit stating 'and no-one must lie the animals' or words to that effect. Then again it states that women must stay in little period huts when its that time of the month as they are ritually unclean... my catholic education is flooding back to me!

Personally if you live your life as a good person, caring for others then I don't see what the problem is.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:04

Astrophe - but if God can do all that, would it really have been such an effort to give us an instruction manual that didn't, at points, seem to directly contradict the reason and conscience that were also his benevolent gifts?