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Original poster

What exactly does the Bible say about homosexuality?

221 replies

beansmum · 15/07/2008 21:09

And why do some Christians make such a big deal out of it when Jesus didn't mention it at all?

It is kind of on my mind at the moment because of a comment the woman preaching on Sunday made about 'truth not tolerance', standing up for the 'truth' and not just trying to 'hug everyone and tell them they are ok'.

OP posts:
cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:08

Youcant - I wasn't criticising you - I apologise for clumsy wording.

I think it probably is the general consensus in the christian community. But whereas Peachy and I can agree to disagree peaceably, the Anglican bishops have got to agree how to run a church...

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:08

MP, yes I'm sure that many Christians just find homosexuality 'yuck' (many non Christians too) and so wrongly judge based on that, rather than the Bible. Homosexuality is a more 'loaded' issue that divorce, I see your point.

FWIW, I know of many churches which, whilst they would be forgiving and loving to divorced people wanting to remarry, would refuse to conduct the service. In the same way that gays would be welcome at our church, but the church would not consecrate their union. Now I'm sure you disagree with both those positions, but I hope you can appreciate that some Christians do have integrity in this.

Youcanthaveeverything · 16/07/2008 17:10

No probs cornflakegirl I know how irratating it can be when poeple pile in not having read the discussion.

I should have known better.

I am going to read it later!

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:14

cornflake - I guess it comes down to faith doesn't it. If we knew all, we wouldn't need any. As I quoted below:

29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deut 29)

And I think you said yourself
"Hence my position on homosexuality. My well-reasoned opinion is that there's nothing wrong with it. But God says it's wrong. So there must be another factor that I don't know about."

Interesting you said "before I was an evengelical" (hope I'm not misquoting...can't find it now!). What changed for you? And what were you before?

Scootergrrrl · 16/07/2008 17:18

Wasn't there something in the debate on women bishops which said part of the opposition was a paragraph in the Bible that said the leaders of the church must be "husband to one wife" or something - therefore ruling out women, divorce and homosexuality in one fell swoop.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:18

(Kay - I really hope your day gets better. I've been largely ignoring the issues of homosexuality and headship for several years. My relationship with God is crap, and I don't need to make it any worse! So I really admire you for actually working it through, rather than just making do.)

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:24

Astrophe - you know that the "if we knew everything, we wouldn't need faith" is a pat cop-out, don't you?!

I went to church when I was a kid. When I was about 15, it became a real living faith. Then I went to university, and met evangelicals for the first time - scary bunch. I began really reading the bible properly, and basically became convinced that it was God's word.

Really scared my parents - they'd sent a liberal freethinker to university and got back some brainwashed weirdo!

SqueakyPop · 16/07/2008 17:25

Thank you for those who have given well-reasoned and sensitive posts.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this subject, as I am conflicted between the 'love one another' commandment, and everything else. It doesn't affect me in my ministry, as I view sin as a separation from God rather than the breaking of an earthly law.

God knows what is going on and he is in charge. I pray only for discipleship for all those people who have sexual relations outside of the Christian view of marriage. The Holy Spirit can work on them to either transform them, or to affirm their deeds, according to the will of God and not the will of man.

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:27

I'm playing devil's advocate with the "why doesn't God tell us" thing, in case it's not obvious. I know the stock answers, and I know that in the end we just have to trust that God knows best. I just don't like that answer. Not about something so important.

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:34

I was thinking "either cornflake is playing devils advocate, or she is rather...er...mixed up!".

(But I don't think its a cop out for 2 reasons - 1. the Bible says it...see Deuteronomy 29 belowe, and 2. It is illogical to expect that we would be able to understand everything that God can understand, becaue He is God, and we are not, and if we could understand the things he could, he wouldn't be much of a God!)

Why do you think your relationship with God is crap?

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 17:35

back later, kids want to watch a dvd on the computer

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:37

Scootergrrrl - Titus 1:6-8 lays out the criteria for a church leader.

It could be interpreted as ruling out all or none of women, divorced men and gay men, depending on how you read it. Generally it's a bad idea to base important doctrine on just one verse though!

CountessDracula · 16/07/2008 17:40

I read today that leviticus says that women must bog off to outside the city walls when they are on the blob

Funny how religious types pick and choose what to apply to modern times isn't it? I bet you don't catch them lurking outside walls while on the blob...

KayHarker · 16/07/2008 17:46

Well actually, I'd be quite up for some time away from doing the day to day crap when I was on my period, actually, so I'm ok with that one.

KayHarker · 16/07/2008 17:47

actually, actually, lots of actuallys

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 17:49

Astrophe - or both

I'm not asking to understand everything. Not really. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask to understand more.

I also think that sometimes we need to be a little less quick to trot out the apologetic answers. (And this is aimed as much at myself as at you.) Sometimes it's just a theological argument, and that's fine. But sometimes people are hurting, and we need to acknowledge that.

PeachyBAHons · 16/07/2008 17:56

'God knows what is going on and he is in charge.'

Well yes that's the thing.

As my (very Evangelical friend) says we all have to answer for ourselves on judgement day- well if you believe that then surely you beleive that it is God's business and not yours? So even if its not something you feel comfy with, it's for God to determine, not a mere Human?

cornflakegirl · 16/07/2008 21:11

Peachy - not sure what your point is here? We all have to answer for ourselves on judgment day - but we have to answer for whether we have loved one another. We're not little christian islands.

I agree that, ultimately, God's view of how we have used our lives, including our sexuality, is the only view that counts. But I don't think that means we can just pretend the issue doesn't exist. For a start, there are too many christians for whom it is a real, every day issue. Should they just be left to guess?

Astrophe · 16/07/2008 21:27

countess dracular - read down the thread, there is some discussion and explaination of that issue (old T laws) further down, if you're interested.

Cornflake. You're right, it is a 'stock' answer, and I certainly didn't mean to gloss over hurts and feelings. I'm very sorry if I came accross like that. Sometimes the answer has become a 'stock' answer because it is true though, and because it is the only one we will have this side of heaven. I don't think you are wrong for wanting to understand better -not at all - but that doesn't make it untrue that Christians need to trust God with what they don't understand, and we do ned to keep saying whats true again and again and again, even if it gets old (not that you were sayig that).

Jackstini · 16/07/2008 22:41

Hi Astrophe - have been away from the thread and have some catching up to do now!
Did we meet in RL at one of the Nottingham Castle meet-ups? I remember us both being on the March 06 AN thread.
Yes I am a Christian - funny I didn't know you were either, not something you automatically mention on every thread though I suppose
I agree the OT is still v important, I probably wasn't particularly eloquent or full in my post. It is more that I don't think the OT should be taken completely literally just on it's own, but more as part of the whole Bible to get the full context. Also that personally, I feel the Gospels are more important to me as they include the words of Christ and feel as though they are literally speaking to me, along with a lot of the letters in the NT.

UQD - I don't get your saying 'written by dozens of different people' as though it is a bad thing. Surely many different people of various ages, sexes, times in history and cultures coming up with parts of the same story is more reliable than everything coming from 1 person...?

Will catch up on the rest now!

Jackstini · 16/07/2008 22:55

Cornflakegirl - re your post on instruction manual. I think God sent his son Jesus as the people of the world were not following the original 'instruction manual' very well. I guess the teaching of Jesus and the eventual NT is therefore a kind of update?
I have not really thought about it much for a long time but I guess I also have issues with the divorce part that comes up in Church discussions.
I was divorced after being married in a Church and am now remarried (again in a Church, ceremony conducted by a divorced vicar!)

madamez · 16/07/2008 22:56

KayH: slight hijack here but ISTR that you like fantasy fiction/sci fi etc. Are you familiar with Laurell K Hamilton's work? Because there is some sort of interesting stuff about religion and choices and indeed sexual behaviour in some of her later books: you might not agree with all her conclusions but you might find them sort of helpful (as in a different viewpoint) - basically the central character is a Christian and involved in all this supernatural stuff and as the series progresses she questions her faith but doesn't lose it...

KayHarker · 16/07/2008 23:05

madamez, I'd not heard of her, but I'll go and look her up on amazon now, cheers

madamez · 16/07/2008 23:21

You might have a look at some of the online forums about her too - basically she went through a radical life change (divorce, reassessment of her attitudes) and it came out in the books, some of the early fans hated it and she (presumably) got pissed one night and wrote this huge ranty blog about how stupid they were - but a key component of her current work is that her god still loves (her character) people who do bad things for good reasons, and that religion isn't 'the sex police'. It's entertaining stuff...

PeachyBAHons · 17/07/2008 09:47

No I don't think we should guess. I think we should look deep into our hearts and trust by what we feel is really right, for me that is to love and accept as much as I can- sopmetimes that will be beyond me as I am only Human, but I will do my best.

If that is wrong then I will gladly answer for it on judgement day. Because I believe that by living this way I am truly following the Jesus commandment, which is the best I can do.

You say (CG) 'as for other people'- I can only answer for myself. But if we beleive the NT is the final part of God's revelation, then the latter scriptures should surely be followed?