Lily Philips - can she be a 'true' Christian?

[mids2019]

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/lily-phillips-has-been-baptised-i-pray-its-accompanied-by-change/20772.article

This article made me think about what it means to be Christian especially about the concepts of sin, judgment and redemption.

In my view Lily of course is a Christian being baptised but to not give up a lucrative adult film career possibly does cause angst amongst more traditional Christians.

We are taught not to judge 'Let those without sin cast the first stone' and to accept the universal unconditionally of forgiveness. (We pray every day about the forgiveness of sin) so it is difficult thologically to condemn others.

However does any fellow Christian need to remind Lily she makes money from a profession where many women with less choice are coerced and manipulated for thr gratification of men? Wr have moved away from a less judgmental Christianity but how do you view participation in Christian life with such a job?

Many protestant Christians view Christians of other denominations as true Christians.

In the faith, there are essential beliefs, such as the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
On essential beliefs there is a lot of agreement across the denominations. Exactly how @Catinabeanbag said about the creeds.

There are also non-essential beliefs that different Christians can sincerely believe based on different interpretations of Scriptures. Different denominations allow people to live by their convictions in community with others who hold the same convictions but it doesn't mean that only one denomination is the true Christian one.

We accept that on some issues we don't have a universal agreement among the world wide Christian community. But all Christians need to hold fast to the essential beliefs and have grace for one another in non-essential matters.

The OP is making the point that because some churches are changing their definitions of sexual immorality its making it confusing of what does repenting of sin (and sexual sin in particular look like) in the Christian faith. Its a valid question, and a very difficult conversation to have to balance compassion, faith, grace and truth.

For my part, I believe repenting of sexual immorality means not engaging in any sexual behaviour outside of a heterosexual marriage. I believe that is what Scriptures teaches as a whole and I trust Scripture is God's word and I trust that God is good and His will is best for my life.

I do not expect people to trust in the word of a God they don't believe in. But I do think Christians should trust and obey God's word.

It's interesting there is a Muslim open actress Yasmin Khan who defends her career choice by saying 'I am not a perfect Muslim but who is'. The vitriol she receives on line is off the Hart from the Muslim community and I guess she has to have some awareness of personal security even in the UK. I guess maybe a point is that in the UK there is no definitive Islamic authority that can do the Islamic equivalent of ex communication. Islam very much is about being born in faith and Muslim identity is very important to them......however you can see the problem that Yasmina poses in that even though she wears a hijab occasionally her behaviour to many devout Muslims undermines their faith and there is a sincere wish by some that her actions would fall under criminal law given her profile.

is there a case that with modern Christinaity with an emphasis on redemption you need to include all who declare themselves Christians under the Christian umbrella even though admittance to the Christian community would undermine the natural association of religion and upkeep of morality (as we perceive it)?

About the discussion as what does a believer mean or shall I write what does a true Christian mean- but I am not so fond of that word ? Yes, the faith is a walk and we are al at different stages. The below though in time is what Jesus would like believers to do and therefore behaving in a manner as he would want.
So the question to ask..do you do these things after establishing your journey.

(John 8:31)
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.”

(ESV version) “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples”

(John 14:15) “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.

(Matthew 16:24) “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

(John 13:35). “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”.

(John 6:29 ) “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

(Luke 6:36) "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."

(Matthew 5:7) "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy."

(Matthew 10:8) " Freely ye have received, freely give."

(Matthew 5:21) "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgement"

(Matthew 7:1) "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again"

(Matthew 22:37-40) -“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

(Matthew 5:44) " I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you."

(Matthew 5:19) "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Thank you for the list of questions about being a believer. There is little mention of sin but mention of commandments. If you limit commandments to such as avoiding adultery how do you configure this for 2026? If you are C of E the King i.e. governer has openly admitted to commuting adultery and is presumably not monogamous. Many people live together outside marriage and if Christian how do you define adultery in this instance without a Christian marriage?

it is the immense complexity and personal nature of sexual sin that makes it a problem for modern Christianity to face in a modern society.

Also we have to accept that a bible is deeply patriarchal and many teachings are addressed specifically toward men of you are being literal. For example in the quotations above it is a man who must deny himself and pick up the cross....this leaves the question what about women?

The commandments are the word of God to which is scripture and also it is the will of God I think.

There is scripture which is against fornication. This was in one of my Christian dictionaries. I find it reads and it reads like to me that being carnal minded may not bar from eternal life with Christ. Scripture tells us not to be carnally minded. You may not agree the author's views below, it is one opinion. They make it seem that to t be carnally minded does not bar someone from eternal life, which comes from salvation which is critical to the faith. I do go to an Anglican church, but I am non denominational and was baptised in a Catholic church as a child and agree with lots of good things that different church's say. They don't conflict each other.

"Though believers experience carnality, divine discipline, or broken fellowship through sin, their possession of eternal life remains permanent because salvation rests upon God’s grace and faithfulness rather than human consistency. The doctrine of eternal life provides assurance, stability, hope, and motivation for godly living as believers await the full realisation of their future glorification in the presence of Christ."

I think we have an example here of trying to adopt maybe archaic terms like fornication into modern society. Fornication is sexual intercourse between unmarried people but if we adopt that standard to young couples in 2026 many would fail that standard especially if we start to be granular about sexuality. This is without complicating things by bringing in same sex realtionship s. I suppose maybe the point is if we have to revisit sexual sin to accomodate 2026 society we leave 'loop holes' that you could argue Lily may be using.

Scripture also says about lust (Matthew 5:28) "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart"

I posted before that there was debate going on this subject area which my minister told me about and I don't see any updates. I couldn't find anything official has come out especially the word malakoi meaning soft which seems to come from the word effeminate which the Bible mentions to. I look forward to read the conclusion of their debates.In some heterosexual relationships one partner may dominate the other which is does not support (Galatians 3:28). It does seem that they may need to review this area today.

Does sex work exclude you from believing in a god?
I’ve always viewed it as someone’s relationship with their god is their own business.
there are people who kill, maim and do all sorts of evil in the name of gods and still believe they are holy. Compared to that, having sex for money doesn’t seem the worst thing.

it is the immense complexity and personal nature of sexual sin that makes it a problem for modern Christianity to face in a modern society.

I would argue it's no more problematic than it always has been.

For example in the quotations above it is a man who must deny himself and pick up the cross....this leaves the question what about women?

The word 'man' is mainly translated as 'anyone' in most versions. Strong's gives the following:

tis: someone, anyone, certain one, some, a certain thing
Original Word: τις
Part of Speech: Indefinite Pronoun
Transliteration: tis
Pronunciation: tis

So we see it's an indefinite pronoun and not specifying men exclusively.

Wrt Lily, if she doesn't change her behaviour in the light of her claim that she is born again, then we will know she was not. It's as simple as that. You cannot become a born again Christian and not be transformed by the Holy Spirit over time. So we need to reassess this in say 6 months or 12 months and see what fruit there is, or isn't.

And what, you'll sit around like Pharisees in a particularly bitchy mood and give her a thumbs up or down after a period of time? Who makes you the arbiter? What happened to 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'?

In the very same chapter where Jesus says 'judge not' he also says the following:

Matthew 7:15-23 ESV
[15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [16] You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? [17] So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. [18] A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. [21]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

So we are not to judge = condemn others. Meaning: don't assign a person to eternal punishment in your heart. That is not our place. We are to have hope that every person might repent of their sins and receive God's mercy and eternal life.

But we are to be wise, and that means being able to tell the difference between truth and lies. People do use religion to manipulate others. I'm sure atheists will agree.

So Jesus warns us don't follow the teaching or example of those who claim to be Jesus followers but whose actions and results of their choices (fruit) are bad. This especially important in regards to people who seek authority or influence over other people in the faith.

I'm personally not going to make an assessment on Lily Philips - I don't know anything about her except what has been said on this thread. I just hope the best for her. But I would object to her being a guest preacher at my church whilst she is still working as a sex worker.

I'm going to quote what @JustSmiling said a couple of pages back, because the 'judge not lest ye be judged' is one of the most misunderstood passages in the gospel.

We are not taught to 'not judge' but to judge in the manner we are to be judged.

Individually, we are/will be judged by Jesus Christ. However, it is our duty to judge, in righteousness, other Christians errant in their ways to guide away from sin. We are also taught to judge and actively avoid the ways of the world so that we are not lured into the sin of the world which is inherently sinful.

The non-judgement statement is one of the most misquoted and misinterpreted parts of the Gospel and means we are remiss in our duties and misunderstand our instructions to our own, and others, peril.

Your last sentence is interesting. At my church sexual sin is never discussed and as from previous posts we take a very non judgmental attitude as instructed by Christ. Aren't you judging a theoretical Lily by patronising her in church? It is difficult marrying being non judgmental and open to repentant sinners with setting a standard that perhaps defines someone who wants to be treated as a Christian.

The problem I would have (and its difficult) is that we believe in a redeeming God and eternal life by faith alone (not much mention of hell.in my church) then you would maybe have accept Lily in church with hope she ultimately would change her ways. The by product is that you are left with a God accepting a £30 million pound worth open star in holy communion with no visible consequence on this mortal plane.

I'm not sure I understand where your confusion is coming from. But my logic goes like this:

In my church preachers are expected to personally practice what they preach. Otherwise we would have hypocrisy. God hates hypocrisy.

In my church we preach the Gospel message and all our teachings are from the Bible.

If a preacher was openly and publicly engaged in something the Bible defines as sexual immorality it would not be appropriate for them to be preaching. (And we have letters in the New Testament outlining these standards and how to handle sin within the church community)

Receiving God's forgiveness and grace doesn't mean we can all carry on sinning. Sin is still terrible. Sin always leads to suffering, one way or another.

Also Christians are meant to represent Jesus to others. We can't do that well if we are doing the things Jesus told us not to do.

It is uncomfortable but a loving church is a place where we help one another repent of our sins and live righteously instead.

However, it is important to know that the amount of accountability one has to their church community changes depending on their responsibilities and intimacy within the church. E.g. the non believer who visits a church service has no accountability to the church. They can live as they like. Whereas the Pastor has to live by very high standards, because of their influence and power in people's lives.

@TwinklySquid 'there are people who kill, maim and do all sorts of evil in the name of gods and still believe they are holy'

To whom do you refer? Examples, please.

@mids2019 "If you are C of E the King i.e. governer has openly admitted to commuting adultery and is presumably not monogamous."

If you watched the marriage ceremony where he married his mistress (Camilla P-B) before the ceremony they both confessed their sins in front of the Archbishop.

There is nothing to suggest that the King is not monogamous now.

Out of curiosity would you be happy with a gay pastor? I take it that won't necessarily bother you?

Sorry typo ...presumably monogamous.

I suppose we don't openly question the sec lives of our church leaders so is there a degree of trust here?

I would be fine with a Pastor who was gay, in that they only ever experienced sexual attraction for the same sex.

I would not be fine with a Pastor who was married to the same sex or having sex outside of a heterosexual marriage.

When Jesus returns He is coming to Judge. Not #BeKind. So we Christians need to endeavour to stay as close to His teachings as we can (whilst spreading the gospel to those who do not know Christ, and will see Him by our example). So if Christians are living the same lives as if they'd never been reborn then there's something seriously wrong.

I think there is an honesty about that. Again I very much suspect gay prests even married do have sexual relations. I suppose at least you have clarity on your personal views on sexual sin and the role of preacher.

I

Quote:

(Matthew 5:19) "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Is that not a problem because he does not say what commandments ?

It has to be assumed he is talking about the 635 or so Mosaic laws. But he broke some of them himself, and told his apostles to. Indeed, the concept of the covenent is that Mosaic laws no longer apply.

So what commandments ?

Don't we tend to rely on ghr ultimate commandment. Love God. Love one another. A lot of Christ's teaching focused on Love in one form or another maybe pivoting a bit from sin?

Is that replying to me ? About what commandments ?

This is interesting, because if you do now know what commandents he is talking about,how does one know if they are broken ?

And it's even worse if the post crucifiction rules are taken into account. 1 Tim 2:12 for example. Is that a commandment ? Because if it is, even in it's most lenient form, it's a problem for women preachers. At it more extreme it means no women Prime Ministers, or managers, supervisors and so on.