Lily Philips - can she be a 'true' Christian?

[mids2019]

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/lily-phillips-has-been-baptised-i-pray-its-accompanied-by-change/20772.article

This article made me think about what it means to be Christian especially about the concepts of sin, judgment and redemption.

In my view Lily of course is a Christian being baptised but to not give up a lucrative adult film career possibly does cause angst amongst more traditional Christians.

We are taught not to judge 'Let those without sin cast the first stone' and to accept the universal unconditionally of forgiveness. (We pray every day about the forgiveness of sin) so it is difficult thologically to condemn others.

However does any fellow Christian need to remind Lily she makes money from a profession where many women with less choice are coerced and manipulated for thr gratification of men? Wr have moved away from a less judgmental Christianity but how do you view participation in Christian life with such a job?

@RedTagAlan it's ok, I am not trying to convince you of anything or bring you back to anything. Your path is your own. I mentioned it because I know a lot of post-evangelical survivors - some atheist/devonverted, some who have retained some faith but in ways that would be condemned and disparaged by evangelicals, and I remembered that BLs books were considered worthwhile by several people in this group.

What does being of Christian heritage have to do with being anti-Semitic?!?!? Wow. I knew knowledge of the long history of Christian anti-Semitism was woefully poor but to not even have any knowledge of it so that you cannot even comprehend why being of Christian heritage is of relevance to holding anti-Semitic beliefs.. You should read up on the history.

Christian cultures have developed a popular belief that the the God of the OT is shit and barbaric but the God of the NT is lovely and gentle. Its hard to see this as anything other than a belief infused with anti-Semitism being as they are talking about the Hebrew Bible, and Jews will have a very different view from the one you espoused of their God, and apparently rejecting the Jewish birth of their religion. Many Christians have a poor knowledge of the OT, I recently heard a lecturer who trained Ministers stating she trained one who had never heard of Moses....

I also find it hard to hear links being made in statements such as yours between the links between the Jewish Bible and genocide and slavery, whereas its Christians and Christian heritage countries who have been doing the genociding and pogroming (of Jews) and massive scale slave trading (along with Islam). The NT also accepts slavery as a fact of life, so, accusations just against the OT on this display your bias.

I am not saying you are consciously anti-Semitic but I absolutely see your statement as infused with a long history of Chrisitan anti-Semitism that you have unconsciously absorbed.

Quote "No it's nothing like the Pharisees praying on street corners so everyone notices and says 'wow how holy these men are!' "

The word in Matt 6:2 is " Hypocrites" . Strongs Greek word G5273.

Strong's Greek: 5273. ὑποκριτής (hupokrités) -- Hypocrite (biblehub.com)

It does not say "Pharisees".

Quote " We do in the main know who wrote each book. There's no one overall human author."

Who wrote Matthew then ? Real name ? Nationality ? Anything more than just "Matthew"? And I never said there was one overall author.

Quote " I think you learned remarkably little during that time about the Christian faith and theology. This is evident from how you 'interpret' Scripture. I do partly blame whichever church you belonged to for not educating you properly in the faith and discipling you."

Ahh yes. The good old "you were never a real Christian" argument. But you are of course. Even as you post disagreeing with other Christians, and they post disagreeing with you.

All I am doing is saying what is written in the Bible. And really, if God does not mean for what is written in his book to mean it as it is written, then perhaps he should have inspired for it to be written differently.

Then again. That might explain why it took 200 years for the story of the adulteress to make it into the book of John. Maybe he was off on holiday with Jesus and was too busy to inspire anyone.

From where I am standing all you are doing is proving that you can take the girl out of the evangelical but you can't take the evangelical out of the girl. 😁

If you want to convert others to atheism please do start your own thread. As I said before, this is a thread about the limits one can go to and still be Christian. You want to talk about something else. That's perfectly legitimate, but start your own thread to do it.

@SpiritAdder 'Going after a working woman when Christ’s first disciple was a working woman.'
This is incorrect, even though the identity of Jesus’s first disciple has been debated for centuries.
If you’re looking for a quick answer – Simon Peter is traditionally considered to have been the first disciple that Jesus called. However, there are also good arguments for other candidates like John or Andrew.

In John it says

[THE EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS DO NOT INCLUDE 7:53 - 8:11]

Sigh. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees whom he is calling 'hypocrites'.

I know you didn't claim one overall author, I placed that comment in case others reading may believe Christians claim there is only one. The gospel of Matthew, written circa 70-90 AD (the last gospel to be written).

The good old "you were never a real Christian" argument. But you are of course. Even as you post disagreeing with other Christians, and they post disagreeing with you.

You weren't, I believe you were never saved. Everything you are saying and doing now confirms that. But God knows for sure, not me. Yes I am a real Christian as are many others in this chat. I don't know their denominations, it matters not one jot. We are not saved by our denomination but by what's in our heart re faith in Christ. Of course there will be disagreements on various points. That doesn't concern me. The only concern is whether one has true belief in Christ and the core beliefs which I have mentioned many times before. The Nicene creed sums that up. The rest will follow as sanctification occurs over time. We (Christians) are not all at the same point in our journey. That's OK.

Wow indeed. You are accusing me of being antisemitic because I am talking about stuff that is in the Bible, specifically the old testament.

Are you saying there is no incest, genocide, slavery in the old testament ? Is that what you are saying ?

I have one open now in front of me. Would you like me to mention examples of the above from the Pentateuch ? What version would you like me to use. I have quite a few. I pefer the LSV, but I have KJ-1611, Calvin 1856, NKJ, Bishops. Alexandria,MLV2021,ESV, ASV, ISV. Some of them have the full annotation too with Strongs.

I don't think I need to read up on history of antisemitism from Christians. I know, as an example, that it was not till the 1960's that the Roman Church put out a statement to say that Jews were not collectively responsible for the death of Jesus.

Quote "I am not saying you are consciously anti-Semitic but I absolutely see your statement as infused with a long history of Chrisitan anti-Semitism that you have unconsciously absorbed."

Wow indeed.

From memory. Examples.

Genocide- Noah and his ark (Gen 6). Exodus, Joshua.

Incest - Adam and Eve and their sons. Who did Cain and Able impregnate. Noah (again). Lot impregnated his daughters. Abraham married his sister.

Slavery. Exodus 21. Leviticus 25. Joshua.

What version of the Bible are you using that has none of this in it ?

And let me get this straight. You are saying if I quote any of the above, in a discussion about Christianity, that I am being antisemitic ? Yes again, wow.

@flowersinlife I was listening to a great sermon earlier today by a Pentecostal preacher, who was saying if you don't change after you are reborn in Christ, you are a dead Christian! I think he nailed it. So Lily will need to throw off her old life and take on the new, if she continues on as she was then her new 'faith' has not changed her and one must doubt her salvation.

About slavery that has been discussed which is somewhat off topic. I was in a forum last week and this subject was raised. What people may assume as slavery were not slavery in a conventional sense and this link may explain it better.
https://www.chabad.org/library/articlecdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

I also like this quote to-
"The Lord has never promoted nor approved of people owning one another. But slavery was a part of life in those times. Almost every country practised it. And in this case, though not an ideal situation to be in, bondage to the Egyptians was the best answer to the Israelite’s dilemma of how to become a nation without becoming a threat to other nations while they grew in numbers."

https://gospelstudy.us/why-did-god-allow-israel-to-be-slaves/?srsltid=AfmBOooZGwBFds2LaBn5xD0XYIrleYN6275TCpzkQuZbsBXe0kbk-7k

It was written that incest was all over or in the Bible-It was made not lawful in Leviticus laws.

Some people discuss about Mary Magdalene about what occupation she had before she had her transformation. I don't know for sure, but her transformation was real.

Yup. We have been here before GS. And you somehow know what was in my heart for over 20 years.

How very Christian of you. Seriously. That is a very Christian reaction in my experience. Not all Christians react that way of course. US evangelicals have called me Satan, a demon. Wished me to burn in hell for eternity. Others have prayed for me.

And no doubt a lot of those Christians are not real Christians by your metrics, just as some of them might say the same about you.

So better off out of it I reckon. Stand outside and peek in.

Quote " Sigh. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees whom he is calling 'hypocrites'."

In Matthew 6 ? The sermon on the mount ? Let me check to see who he was talking to.

Mat 4:25 And there followed Him many multitudes from Galilee, and Decapolis, and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan.(LSV)

Mat 5:1 And having seen the multitudes, He went up to the mountain, and He having sat down, His disciples came to Him,(LSV)

I see no mention of Pharisees. Do you mean it was only the Pharisees who had trumpeters in front of them ? If so, that might be a problem, because where does the Bible say that ?

Lev 25:9 and you have caused a horn of shouting to pass over in the seventh month, on the tenth of the month; in the Day of Atonements you cause a horn to pass over through all your land;(LSV)

Yes, It is in Mosaic law. So here we have Jesus saying NOT to do public prayer, but to do it in private. He is not saying to keep doing it in public, but without the trumpets.

If that is what he meant, he would have just said " keep doing as you are doing but leave the trumpets at home. Because all of those rules and laws He gave Moses are wrong"

Well, first of all Ms Phillips doesn't say she has actually joined a church. She hasn't even said what denomination she has been Baptised into.

Personally I think this is all performative.

If you build your "brand" on being outrageous. then you are only as good as your last outrageous episode. Eventually you're going to hit the buffers as the human body is only capable of a limited amount of abuse !
Those of us that saw the documentary about Lily Phillips by Josh Pieters will see the mess she was in after her 100 man 'sexathon'. She was crying and looked distressed. Then she made the amazing comment that "it was very intense, it wasn't like real sex, it was like being a prostitute" 😧
I was amazed that she had only just realised that's what she is !

What version ?

ESV

I will not be responding to you any longer.

Some of these posts may try patient people and you need a whistle like to blow time out. It seems that you had a hard time with some comments by US evangelicals..but you yourself can press buttons at times. For example numerous times you have called God and his Son liars...If you said something like that to them you are not exactly blameless in the matter..although they should try and be respectful to you. I am not trying to flame that now...just to say how you may ignite this sort of debate at times to.

You can look for a small misunderstanding to say people are not being very Christian and it could come off as mocking.

Myself, I did believe you was a Christian and I was speaking to someone out last week who was an evangelist and I asked him his views on eternal life. He said he believes that salvation can be lost. I think perhaps by your words you may be never developed your walk with the Holy Spirit and you had problems knowing what function they had. You we are all free to make our choices though. I hope that things come together for you.

Cool. My electronic ESV does not. Nor does my paper NKJ reference. Or my paper NT plus Psalms. But my paper copies are of the small print sort, cos I used to travel. And the reference print is very small in that. But nowt about that verse not being in earlier gospels.

My electronic TS2009 does though. My electronic Good News Bible has the whole part square bracket. So that is a yes. Electronic Gods Word, NKJ No. Electronic ASV yes. Do I need go through them all :-)

I think we can agree then ? It is in some, not all.

Quote " It seems that you had a hard time with some comments by US evangelicals..but you yourself can press buttons at times."

Actually no. Because I am atheist. If someone wishes me to burn in hell for eternity because I somehow offended a nonexistent god, then that is not me getting a hard time. That is really a "their problem", not mine. And what buttons am I pushing ? Is it button pushing to quote the Bible to Christians ? Nah.

Quote "I think perhaps by your words you may be never developed your walk with the Holy Spirit and you had problems knowing what function they had."

The "never a real Christian" argument again. Honestly, instead of doing that, why not tackle the issues with the bible head on ? For example, did you ever get a logical answer about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 ? If you did, I would love to hear it.

Quote " I hope that things come together for you."

Thank you. That is very Christian of you. Except of course that things are together just ok for me, and the whole concept of empathy is not exclusively restricted to Christians. And of course, this is a variation on the "all atheists are angry at god" meme. I have seen the Kevin Sorbo films.

As a matter of interest Justmerach. Quite a few Christians have posted on this thread. Do you agree with all of them, and all of them with you ?

Throughout this thread you have shown a tremendous ability to miss the point. And you are doing it again here.

I did not accuse you of being anti-Semitic, I stated that the view you expressed is infused with anti-Semitism arising from a long history of Christian anti-Semitism that you have unconsciously absorbed. If you did read up on this, you may understand this better.

The anti-Semitism comes from the slant and angle you have chosen to put on the OT - where you have given your focus. Much like many Christians have. Why don't you read up on Jewish theology and thought and you will find an alternative way of viewing the Hebrew and using it to live life. Judaism is a very life affirming religion. I think if you do this you will understand better the point I am making.

I don’t know anything about this woman but this would be my guess also.
If she simply had a genuine faith that she wished to strengthen then the world doesn’t need to know about it.

Critically the Christians on this post seem to agree with some important areas and I agree with them over that.

I think that people have varying opinions over the Bible values and you can hold something of value for yourself and not hold anyone else to it. For example I like to cover my head as a female in church but in church’s that do not this, I would not expect other women to do so.

Thank you for explaining what you think went on with the US evangelicals. I was not referring to this thread but in recent memory I remember you calling Christian holy leaders liars many times and with someone else they could react to that.

I have enjoyed reading some of the posts and especially about the liberal Christian view of homosexuality by KindlySurfiingPlatypus on page 4. Any questions would be for further research.

There is a lot of monetising of Christianity going out there and who knows if this may or not be a genuine story. I cannot judge this. I just saw story of a women who became a Christian and turned their life around after being in the adult industry. I haven’t watched it though.

This a million times. It’s not authentic.

So many denominations. So many different types of Christians.

There isn’t one church but many.

Which are the ‘correct’ ones? Who decides?

The CofE has been performing same sex marriages for years. All that is needed is for one of the same sex couple to have a gender recognition certificate.

But I am talking about Chritianity, not Judaism. And the collection of Christian bibles I have include the old Testament.

And yes, I have watched lectures by Rabbis where they explain what Christians get wrong about the old testament. But again, we are talking about what is actually written in it.

If I read Exodus 21:4 for example, in laws about slaves, and here it is specifically Hebrew slaves, it says:

Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. (KJV)

Now I get what you say about institutional Christian antisemitism. That verse might be translated in such a way as to make Hebrews look bad. But I can switch Bible versions to KJV* on my software ( I use e-Sword, it's very good). I get this:

Exo 21:4 IfH518 his masterH113 have givenH5414 him a wife,H802 and she have bornH3205 him sonsH1121 orH176 daughters;H1323 the wifeH802 and her childrenH3206 shall beH1961 her master's,H113 and heH1931 shall go outH3318 by himself.H1610

I get Strongs Hebrew numbers, and I can work through it ( I can't read Hebrew). and no matter how it's done, slavery was a thing. Sure one can say bondage not slavery, but that is semantics, because what it does not say is do not buy or sell people.

In fact, lets step back to Exodus 21:2

Exo 21:2 IfH3588 thou buyH7069 an HebrewH5680 servant,H5650 sixH8337 yearsH8141 he shall serve:H5647 and in the seventhH7637 he shall go outH3318 freeH2670 for nothing.H2600

The word buy. H7069.

Strong's Hebrew: 7069. קָנָה (qanah) -- To acquire, to buy, to possess, to create (biblehub.com)

For sure. Now we can say Strongs Hebrew dictionary is antisemetic,or Biblehub is, but how far do we need to go ? If I switch to a Jewish Hebrew dictionary and cut and paste the word in, will it be different ? And why am I not seeing articles from Hebrew scholars saying these dictionaries are wrong ?

The above is about Hebrew slaves as you know. Now do I need to go thorough every book where slaves are mentioned, esp the non Hebrew slaves ?

There comes a point where it has to be said, the OT is not a gentle book. It is an horrific book. And slavery is condoned. And the other topics I mentioned.