Lily Philips - can she be a 'true' Christian?

[mids2019]

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/lily-phillips-has-been-baptised-i-pray-its-accompanied-by-change/20772.article

This article made me think about what it means to be Christian especially about the concepts of sin, judgment and redemption.

In my view Lily of course is a Christian being baptised but to not give up a lucrative adult film career possibly does cause angst amongst more traditional Christians.

We are taught not to judge 'Let those without sin cast the first stone' and to accept the universal unconditionally of forgiveness. (We pray every day about the forgiveness of sin) so it is difficult thologically to condemn others.

However does any fellow Christian need to remind Lily she makes money from a profession where many women with less choice are coerced and manipulated for thr gratification of men? Wr have moved away from a less judgmental Christianity but how do you view participation in Christian life with such a job?

Surely you remember that the Bible is made up of different genres of writing? For example, Psalms are poetic, Kings and Acts narrative style, Jesus sometimes used parables. Sometimes hyperbole is used. Revelation and Daniel are apocalyptic. It's important to look at the literary genre of the writing, then the historical context, and what was the intention of the author. Often the Bible will state what a particular symbol represents.

The Rev 2:20-23 passage you mentioned earlier is one of the seven letters Jesus writes to the churches - in this case, Thyatira. A larger quote is more helpful: (v.19-25):

And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

^See here the use of similes, 'like' a flame of fire, 'like' burnished bronze. Not actual fire nor bronze. Both these similes suggest judgement from usage elsewhere in the bible, too long to go into here. Jesus calls himself 'Son of God' here to contrast with local claims that Apollo and the emperor were “sons of god" indicating only Jesus has the divine authority.

‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Only hold fast what you have until I come."

What do we know about the church in Thyatira? It was a real church, situated between Pergamos and Sardis. It was a Macedonian colony, founded by Alexander the Great after the overthrow of the Persian empire. The Macedonian colonists appear to have introduced the worship of Apollo, honoured as the Sun-god. People there were from mixed heritage: Asiatics, Macedonians, Italians, and Chaldeans.

Jesus begins by praising the works of the church there, however the church is condoning this 'Jezebel' person, which they should not have done. In the Old Testament Jezebel led Israel into Baal worship and immorality, Jesus uses the same name here, likely referring to similar teaching rather than the actual name of the person. The church in Thyatira must repent of this association otherwise they'll undergo severe judgement ('throw' being a future action). 'Her children' is not literal children, but refers to those who followed Jezebel's (Satanic) teachings and did not hold to the faith. Optimistically the letter ends indicating there is a remnant in the church who do not hold to the teachings of this Jezebel, and Jesus encourages them to hold fast to their faith until He returns. (And yes I am fully aware of how long ago this was and that He has yet to return).

Note: I've used my pastor's sermon on this passage as well as commentaries to try to explain this. Also other denominations may interpret this differently. Some equate the church at Thyatira to the Catholic church, for example. Since these are future prophecies we won't know for sure until it happens.

Gosh, Jesus really missed the boat on that one!

So, did he plan to strike everyone who followed another church's teachings, dead? And, I presume, send them to hell to suffer for all eternity? That seems deeply immoral, frankly.

Quote " The Rev 2:20-23 passage you mentioned earlier is one of the seven letters Jesus writes to the churches - in this case, Thyatira. A larger quote is more helpful: (v.19-25):"

Jesus wrote them ?

That is not what I believe. I think God can decide to end someone's life in the Old Testament but that people didn't always take God's direction and did what they wanted. Also, there is poetry and the Old testament has a good amount of it. I think that God has many faces Psalm 18 and he can show individuals different faces according to how they are to God and sometimes the need that they have.

I am not someone who likes to tell people they are going to hell. I tend to think you are more inclined to try and get that person to Heaven by saying that. I will be frank with you...you was a Christian...you left the faith. You know yourself what that outcome is but want me to tell you. You know pretty much what is in the Bible to. Btw, I was thinking about you that you seem to have some neurodivergent traits. Whose knows if you did if it could help to explain some difficulty with Acts 5 say. perhaps This seems almost a new hobby for you doing the reverse on the Christian faith.

At the end if someone does not believe and has not an exceptional case then the kingdom of God the Bible say will not be given to them. I have responded there but not personally to you.

And how nice of him to write letter about a specific woman in a specific Church, decades after he died.

I comes across as being similar to the Mormons. I can't remember the dates sorry, from memory. When Joseph Smith saw a young damsel that took his fancy, believe it or not an angel appeared to him and gave him new gold plates. And would you believe it, when Smith used his "seeing stones" to translate them, it was a new law from God. " You shall have multiple wives".

Handy that.

And did you look up who produces your HEHS Bible, and why its notes might be highly specific to a particular church? Because your failure to ask the most fundamental questions about the sacred text you supposedly build your entire belief system around is frankly mind-boggling.

Let it be mind boggling to you.

Well, how very thoughtful of God, to make sure that Joseph Smith was able to make use of any woman he liked! 🤢

OK I want to point something very important out here. Most Christians in the UK are Amillennialist, and Covenantalist. They are not taught much at all about Revelation and what is taught is highly allegorised. I myself also grew up in that tradition and had no idea there was any other way of understanding the Bible. A couple of years ago I found out differently! It's like a whole area of the Bible has been opened up that I was totally unaware of. So Justmerach's Christian history from what I understand from her previous posts is a mix of Catholicim and CofE - which is Amillennial. She will likely read commentaries and hear preachers who will regard Revelation as largely symbolic and pretty much ignore the whole thing. It's very sad but it is what it is. So don't have a 'go' at her, please.

Yes, He is writing them via John the Apostle. Go back and read ch 1-3 of Revelation carefully.

'Another Church's teachings'? The 'Jezebel' person represented the false teachings of idolatry and sexual perversion, not something recommended by the Church as far as I'm aware.

Quote "I am not someone who likes to tell people they are going to hell. I tend to think you are more inclined to try and get that person to Heaven by saying that."

So you can't answer my question directly, The second sentence I cant follow. If you say someone is going to hell, then that person might end up in Heaven ? Or is it you are worried you won't get into heaven if you say someone is going to hell ?

Quote " Btw, I was thinking about you that you seem to have some neurodivergent traits."

What can I say to that. TBH, I don't know enough about "neurodivergent traits" to comment io that without me risking insulting people who do know. So disclaimer, if this bit offends, then it is through my ignorance of the subject. Are you saying I am somehow not " normal", if that is the word, because I challenge people on the Bible ? That there is something "adverse" in my brain ?

Discussion with you on this seems fruitless and this is not really the thread to try and encourage people to the faith. I have no intention of that with you.
Btw, I do know about the publishing house and it is standard KJV version Bible with no additions.
The notes are really good and they are just one source. It was actually published the notes by William Collins and Son which who was a member of a mainstream church. My faith is intrinsic to me and I don't like to do sport at times with people who want to attempt to rip it apart for the hell of it. If you don't believe that is down to you. There are no hints of anything but mainstream Christianity in the notes. I have read what I have wanted to-I not read some that seem more conspiracy theory.

Yes, another religion - or another church, so to speak. After all, I presume they had teachings, and a congregation, etc. Anyway, he clearly isn't good at follow through (especially as I imagine idolatry and sexual perversions are far worse now), but that aside:

Are you saying that passage means that he will strike people who worship in a different religion dead, and send them to hell to suffer for eternity?

So Christians don't agree with what the Bible says, even though a few pages back you insisted they do.

Quote " It's very sad but it is what it is. So don't have a 'go' at her, please.".

So hand wave away that Christians don't even agree what the Bible says. It is what it is. While people are preaching that laws etc that affect all should be formulated from it. And that all human morals come from it, with the implication that anyone who does not believe in it is somehow immoral. Immoral to the point even that when I debate as an atheist it becomes " having a go at someone".

I don't think that Jesus likes people to take a condemning tone towards other people unnecessarily and telling them they won't make it. I seem to think at times it may be more likely to do the reverse.

There are so many traits and it is certainly not meant to be insult-you can be a high achiever if you are higher functioning and good at education to some if lower functioning. I myself am diagnosed neurodivergent. I tend to read things literally and need to check if conversing with others if my views are the majority etc and others may see something more symbolically.
You don't appear hypersensitive but hyposensitivity. You can find it difficult with reading between the lines at times and you tend to take things literally which may be symbolic and you didn't take the Acts 5 in context. You have strong interests but that didn't come into it. You cannot determine from a forum and someone told me once before diagnosed. Anyway the reason I told you as you said you want to know what might happen with you. I don't know but if you were neurodivergent it may be discussed at the end about how it could have shaped some of your thoughts..

There’s so much handwaving by this thread’s advocates for Christianity that it’s like a jazz hands convention.

Well I'm going to leave this thread now as it's incredibly counter-productive all round. No doubt will see some of you elsewhere.

Debate is never counter productive - there should be more of it. Debating and being able to put forward a coherent argument is a skill.

Tangentially, the other day my daughter was given a little New Testament Bible at school, and we had a flip through at home, and it's been years since I've read the Bible (I used to read it every Sunday through my childhood) and honestly, Revelations is so poorly written. Obsessed with exact numbers (that it constantly repeats) and generally so repetitive and droning.

Like this, with the locusts:
Rev 9:5 - "They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes." Only to repeat a few sentences later:
Rev 9:10 "They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months."

And this one:
Rev 9:17 - "The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths."

Enough about the fire, smoke, and sulfur!
It happens a lot, and seriously, I know this is a nitpick, but if this is God's word then why didn't he pick a competent writer to pen Revelations? It's just so painfully badly written.

Skips my bad. I just took those as a given for right thinking people. I should have included those.

Yes, it’s sort of like a combination of very, very long fortune cookie message and the kind of thing you might write if tripping on magic mushrooms, plus a lot of golden candlesticks, swords and eating meat sacrificed to idols.

Though I always quite enjoy the lamb with seven horns and seven eyes.

This is what confuses me about sexual immorality. It is too vague a term to be useful in 2026 or without interpretation. What sexual immorality was Jezobel commiting? Was she married in which case was it adultery? We're the men sleeping with her married? Was she effectively just commuting serial monogamy with unmarried people in which case have we got a bible passage incongruent with 2026 lifestyles? Was jezobel engaged in threesomes, orgies? Maybe Jezobel was sleeping with women who knows?

Is Jezobel a misogynist trope of the seductress. The brazen hissy seducing good living married men?

You see I think sexual morality and the modern church does need discussing especially now it ties in with more liberal denominations.

Hussy....good word that.