Do you believe in god?

[Unicorndreams24]

i have recently been thinking a lot about religion and wondering how many believe in god and also what made you come to the decision of believing?

Indeed

So, the fall of man is because eve and adam ate from the wrong tree ?

The tree that the all seeing all knowing God put in the garden in the first place ?

I agree I don’t understand where Christians are coming from - lots of copying and pasting but no facts or evidence. No different from you understanding where atheists come you.
There is no evidence of things happening outside science.
I don’t believe there is anything broken which can be fixed by a Christian belief. Nothing negative has happened to me or will happen to me as an atheist. Life is good!

A question for atheists who seek to de-convert Christians (or other people of faith). Why? Are you hoping we will have a big AHA moment where we realise all we believe in is rubbish, illogical, untrue and indeed deluded? What are you offering us in an atheistic life that is better? Do you not feel even a smidge of guilt that you are trying to take away someone's faith? Would you cheer if you manage to do that?

I do detect a difference in opinion between those atheists who refuse belief in God because they find fault in how the world is (for example Fry) and those who refuse belief in God because they see nothing wrong and assert “life is good”.
interesting 🤔

I've not copy/pasted anything, just FYI. Atheists are people who do not believe in any god. End of? Not that hard to understand? Christianity (or any faith) is quite a lot different!

'No evidence of things happening outside science' - but science has changed and evolved over the course of human history? New things are being discovered all the time? Things that we once had no evidence for we now do. So I don't find that a good argument.

I don’t believe there is anything broken which can be fixed by a Christian belief. Nothing negative has happened to me or will happen to me as an atheist. Life is good!

Well, OK! Good you have a crystal ball to foresee your future though? But if that's what you believe, then that's fine, you have free will and can make that decision. Others clearly differ in their beliefs.

“Nothing negative has happened to me or will happen to me as an atheist.”

I think this thread has probably run its course. 🤔

typo

Provide evidence then that something negative will happen to me as a lifetime atheist?

What is going to change if I was to have a Christian faith?

No different than expecting an atheist to suddenly think life would be better as a Christian. No evidence that things would be better.

Personally I am not trying to convert anyone. Nor de-convert. Freedom of religion is right there in the UN convention on Human rights. Article 18.

My thing is freedom from religion. And as we see Reform promote " we are a Christian country", I think it's handy to engage in debate on Christianity to hone the old " why Christianity makes no sense at all" debate skills. And no, I am not saying anyone here is a Reform voter.

That, and I do just enjoy debate for the sake of debate. Especially if it's a subject I sort of know. And I do sort of know Christianity.

Any flat earthers about? I enjoy debating them too.

:-)

@GentleSheep

Quote : " 'No evidence of things happening outside science' - but science has changed and evolved over the course of human history? New things are being discovered all the time? Things that we once had no evidence for we now do. So I don't find that a good argument."

That's another reason to debate Christianity. Because Christians do often, not always, but often, have a tendency to be anti science.

Science does not really change. It is refined, added to, hypothesis are proven or disproven, but it is not really being changed.

Likes of evolution is proven without a doubt. We refine it. There is no other theory to knock it on it's head. No reversal.

I could write a lot of things that I expect you would say you already have as you are. For example, for 'fellowship with believers' you'd say 'but I have a great group of friends!' or 'inner peace and hope' you'd likely say 'but I can have that from meditation!' So I will skip those.

A strong and enduring relationship with God that you build over your lifetime via prayer and study of scripture.

That the 'self' comes second to doing God's work instead of living life purely for one's selfish ends.

The assurance that there will be justice for all - those who you would say escaped judgement by humanity for their crimes in death e.g. Jimmy Saville, or even Hitler, they will face judgment for what they have done before God, which seems only fair!

That good does ultimately triumph over evil, forever.

The big one: Eternal life after death with Jesus, in an amazing eternal kingdom, with a world that has returned to a state where there is no death, illness or tears.

'Sort of know' ?? You never said what began your 'fall' from belief? And if you are still reading the Bible yourself, then what system are you using to interpret it?

I just read the words. I was a Christian for over 20 years. That is why I do sort of know the Bible.

I say " sort of", because I don't know the middle part at all well. Judges and Daniel stuff. I have read them yes, but never connected.

And those books are never really mentioned in debates.

No

Daniel is my favourite book! Imagine being forcibly taken from your home in Jerusalem to a place that is so vastly different, and yet still being able to maintain your faith throughout the years that followed (about 70 years I think as Daniel was taken late teens, probably). I love the prophecies in that book, some still to come.

I find Daniel very compelling, particularly since our Lord referred to a specific verse in Daniel when answering His disciples questions-

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Mat 24:3 "And when He is sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came near to Him by Himself, saying, "Tell us, when will these be? And what [is] the sign of Your coming, and of the full end of the age?"" (LSV)

What is it in the answer that is in Daniel ? The Tribulation ?

The JWs are big on that.

I don't think there are many atheists who try to de-convert people. Personally I would find that every bit as disrespectful as I find those people who try to convert me to faith.

That does not however mean I can't question. To me, being an atheist imposes a duty to question everything, think about everything, take nothing for granted.

The problem I have about @ByLovingTraybake 's response to my earlier post is that it all hinges on an assumption: that humanity is broken and that the cause is a disconnect from God. Believing that takes a leap of faith because there's just nothing rational about it. As an atheist, I find it easier to just accept that we live in an imperfect world, inhabited by imperfect creatures, and that it is therefore up to me to mitigate what I can while accepting what I can't. The Serenity Prayer absolutely doesn't need a deity; it applies equally to people with and without faith.

I appreciate the effort everyone's putting into this debate. Thank you all.

Remarks like this 🔼 illustrate a little of the contempt Christians hold for others, whether they perceive that in themselves or not. It's a given that you see us all as sinners, misguided and ignorant. Your creed tells you so; it gives you a mission to offer us a chance to redeem ourselves by joining your faith.

You don't see a whole lot of atheists telling religious people they're fundamentally flawed, stupid and wrong. This is partly because atheism isn't an organised system projecting a set of defined beliefs. It's also because, interestingly, non-believers don't judge the whole person for their faith. We say things like "She's a truly lovely person, with some batshit ideas about superhumans and life after death", or "She honestly believes she's the embodiment of Good but is deliberately and consistently cruel" (cf: Mother Teresa).

We see the faith as one aspect of the whole person. Believers tend to see lack of faith - or a different faith - as definitive of the whole person.

A strong and enduring relationship with God that you build over your lifetime via prayer and study of scripture.

Most of us prefer a strong and enduring relationship with the natural world, with humanity and with ourselves. Religions mediate these relationships via a third party. Emotions, sensations, thoughts, opinions, actions are filtered and modified through the medium of a supernatural being whose viewpoint - reported at third hand by Iron Age men - overrides the viscerally lived and felt experience of being, here, now. This is why we're usually indulgent of strong faith in suffering: the detachment afforded by living through a filter may help endurance (just as hypnotherapy can). As an everyday mode of living, not so much.

That the 'self' comes second to doing God's work instead of living life purely for one's selfish ends.

This is so bloody insulting, it hardly needs a reply.

@GarlicSound I agree with your point about the sense of superiority the religious can exhibit - and I genuinely believe that they do not realise how it comes across. And the same sense of superiority exists in atheist of the 'sky fairy' kind too.

Ultimately too many people believe that there is only one correct way of living a good life and being a good human, and it's theirs. As an atheist, I believe that there are many ways of achieving the goal and we should respect them all.

I am reminded of Death Row in the US. Covert to Jesus and be saved, it won't be so bad for you after we execute you.

This thing here @GentleSheep said too

"The assurance that there will be justice for all - those who you would say escaped judgement by humanity for their crimes in death e.g. Jimmy Saville, or even Hitler, they will face judgment for what they have done before God, which seems only fair!"

My version of Christianity was different. My understanding was that as a Christian I had to accept I would not get into the Country club. Because I was aware of my sins, and also because it was my duty to forgive.

My seeing the light moment was reading Matthew half way across the Atlantic, and it just flashed and I understood. That if Hitler was behind me at the Rapture and was begging forgiveness, then I had to give him my place. Because for me not to forgive would be a sin. I had to really forgive, believe it.

But that was my version.

That by the way is why I have a respect for the Amish. They forgave the guy who shot up their school. Paid for his funeral too. Not a grain of vengeance.

The problem I have about @ByLovingTraybake's response to my earlier post is that it all hinges on an assumption: that humanity is broken

Yes to all the above! Believers see this fundamental element of the human condition as an awful thing, damage in search of repair.

I see it as the difference between humans (and probably some other animals) and the vast majority of life forms. We progressively improve the world for ourselves using tools, analysis, communication, teamwork, etc. We're defined by curiosity and a drive to learn more, do more, make things better.

The story of the tree of knowledge does encapsulate this, in a way. It takes an iron age patriarch or three to turn it into a 'sin'. It is a sin to seek knowledge, how convenient is that for them?! "You are rotten to the core. The only knowledge you need is what God says you need. He'll tell you what you're allowed to know through us and our male descendants."

Think about it. If humans never sought knowledge, they'd be a hairless ape that can't run fast, isn't very strong, has blunt teeth, no claws, secretes no toxins and has very poor vision, hearing and scent detection. I say "they" because they'd have been extinct long ago.

A life of pure, unquestioning simplicity would have been rather nice until you got eaten, mind you ...

You’re absolutely right that the Serenity Prayer articulates wisdom that resonates across worldviews. Accepting what we can’t change and working on what we can is good counsel.

But the Serenity Prayer doesn’t just describe wisdom. It’s a prayer. It specifically asks God to grant serenity, courage, and wisdom. Reinhold Niebuhr wrote it as a petition to a personal God who hears, cares, and acts. You can adopt the principles without the prayer, but at that point you’re borrowing the wisdom while editing out the source.

As a Christian, I believe serenity, courage, and wisdom aren’t just useful ideals. They’re gifts from a God who sustains us, and the prayer works because it acknowledges our dependence on Him. That doesn’t mean atheists can’t pursue those virtues. But the prayer itself assumes a relationship with the One who gives what we’re asking for.
On your second point: you’re right. The OP invited people to share why we believe what we believe. I’ve tried to answer honestly from a Christian perspective, and you’ve engaged thoughtfully from an atheist one. That’s exactly what the thread was for.

We start from fundamentally different frameworks. That’s true for everyone in a conversation like this, not just Christians. But there’s a difference between questioning someone’s view (which is fair and enriching) and dismissing it as irrational simply because it differs from one’s own. I don’t expect agreement, but I do hope for the recognition that thoughtful people can disagree on ultimate questions without one side being unreasonable.

I’ve valued this exchange. You’ve been respectful and clear, and I hope I’ve done the same.