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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

352 replies

Babybirdmum · 14/10/2024 11:40

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

OP posts:
MissConductUS · 15/10/2024 16:37

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 14/10/2024 12:11

I am curious, what is it that makes you unconvinced he is a historical figure?

I've never seen anyone present any remotely convincing evidence that he was.

I'm open to being persuaded, but I don't consider accounts written by people with a vested interest in Christ's existence decades, or in some cases, hundreds of years after the alleged events to be "evidence".

If there are some credible, contemporaneous, objective and unbiased references to his existence, then I genuinely would be interested to see them. Especially so if they are also crediting all sorts of supernatural abilities to him.

Not read the full thread, so apologies if this has already been posted.

The Bible Says Jesus Was Real. What Other Proof Exists? Some argue that Jesus wasn't an actual man, but within a few decades of his lifetime, he was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 15/10/2024 16:41

Just to add to my post, it isn't exactly that I wished that I had been able to turn off the analytical part in my brain. Even if I had been capable of switching off my rational mind and suspending my disbelief, I wouldn't have chosen to do that in order to be able to believe in something that was actually just a benign fiction.

The issue for me is that I really wanted it to be true. I wanted it to stand up to the intense scrutiny that my analytical mind subjected it to, rather than to be able to switch the analysis off. And the more I looked at it, the more I felt that it didn't stand up and I couldn't find any internally consistent logic that would make it stand up. I had to admit defeat.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 15/10/2024 16:53

I think that's probably why I get irritated by Christians trying to "prove" the validity of their beliefs - I tried and tried to make that work and I know that it just doesn't.

I can absolutely respect blind faith, where people just feel that they know what they know and they are willing to accept the illogical, irrational nature of it all without having any need to make sense of it. They are not afraid of the discrepancies and contradictions, and they are willing to tolerate them. That feels like a believable and authentic position to me.

I really struggle with people who try too hard to prove, explain and justify their beliefs, because I always feel that they must either be lying to themselves, or that they haven't bothered to think about it much, or that they simply don't have the analytical skills to be able to see where things don't add up.

Babybirdmum · 15/10/2024 18:08

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 15/10/2024 16:53

I think that's probably why I get irritated by Christians trying to "prove" the validity of their beliefs - I tried and tried to make that work and I know that it just doesn't.

I can absolutely respect blind faith, where people just feel that they know what they know and they are willing to accept the illogical, irrational nature of it all without having any need to make sense of it. They are not afraid of the discrepancies and contradictions, and they are willing to tolerate them. That feels like a believable and authentic position to me.

I really struggle with people who try too hard to prove, explain and justify their beliefs, because I always feel that they must either be lying to themselves, or that they haven't bothered to think about it much, or that they simply don't have the analytical skills to be able to see where things don't add up.

You can’t prove anything really, I can’t prove that I am a real person, I can’t prove that what I see with my eyes is real, I can’t prove that I’m not in the Truman show or that everyone isn’t an alien. I can’t prove this isn’t a dream.

If I was in a casino with one pound, and there were many slot machines and I had to put my coin in a slot, I’d try to watch and see which one I think would win, maybe which one had been used a few times so was likely to win soon, I might ask others what they though, I might google the different slot machines. I wouldn’t just put my coin in anything and hope for the best. If I didn’t put my coin in any, then I’ve not lost anything, but I’ve not gained anything either. That’s how I see faith. The slot machine I chose is Christianity and it’s not just based on blind faith alone, but also requires a some faith.

OP posts:
pikkumyy77 · 15/10/2024 18:44

So: thats basically Pascal’s wager?

What suits you doesn’t suit me. I do think something is lost by believing in things that are false, and following false gods on the off chance that one pays off with eternal life is very dangerous to my handling of this life. “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” has always, sadly, been true.

Has nothing to do with the original question which was “what do non Christian’s know about Jesus.”

Babybirdmum · 15/10/2024 19:02

pikkumyy77 · 15/10/2024 18:44

So: thats basically Pascal’s wager?

What suits you doesn’t suit me. I do think something is lost by believing in things that are false, and following false gods on the off chance that one pays off with eternal life is very dangerous to my handling of this life. “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” has always, sadly, been true.

Has nothing to do with the original question which was “what do non Christian’s know about Jesus.”

“love your neighbour” “love your enemies” …can you explain why that would encourage atrocities?
Yes, the topic has moved on since then.

OP posts:
Illegally18 · 15/10/2024 19:16

Feelingathomenow · 14/10/2024 19:40

I would call myself an esoteric Christian, I believe Jesus/Yeshuah ben Josef existed, but would interpret the various gospels in a different way which would see us all having the capacity to be Christ.

Howver, in a culturally Christian country I think it’s so important that we all know and understand the stories in the bible and the traditional interpretations for a number of reasons:

it helps us understand our heritage, our art, our laws. It gives us common stories that we all understand, references that form part of our language both now and in the past. It creates a societal glue.

Children should all be taught hymns. Singing together where everyone knows the words has amazing effects for both the individual and community. Being able to join in the various rituals creates a much stronger society.

it doesn’t matter if people believe or not with the exoteric form of any religion. It serves so many functions.

So, so true. Those beautiful hymns! What a pleasure to sing them together in the morning at Assembly. And yes, it makes sense of our beliefs, culture etc

T4phage · 15/10/2024 20:21

pikkumyy77 · 15/10/2024 18:44

So: thats basically Pascal’s wager?

What suits you doesn’t suit me. I do think something is lost by believing in things that are false, and following false gods on the off chance that one pays off with eternal life is very dangerous to my handling of this life. “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” has always, sadly, been true.

Has nothing to do with the original question which was “what do non Christian’s know about Jesus.”

What happens after our death is part of Christianity, but not the whole part. We still have to get through life first and life is harsh and unfair. We can get through it with Christ's help and by following His instructions and commands. The most difficult part of life is dealing with other people and it is hard not to become vicious and hardened over time
from dealing with people. Do we want to live our lives in this state?

Eyesthelimit · 15/10/2024 20:35

I know he's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy.

But actually that scene from Monty Python strikes me as being probably very close to the truth. Lots of preachers claiming to have the answer.

It was Paul and others like him who actually made the Christian religion grow to the extent it did and unfortunately their message of misogyny, selectivism and homophobia came with them.

OneDandyPoet · 15/10/2024 20:43

Babybirdmum · 15/10/2024 19:02

“love your neighbour” “love your enemies” …can you explain why that would encourage atrocities?
Yes, the topic has moved on since then.

You don’t need religion to tell you to be a good person. Christianity does not hold a monopoly over morality and good ethics. These things existed, within previous societies, a very long time before a self proclaimed son of god came along and told people to be good.

Worldgonecrazy · 15/10/2024 21:24

OneDandyPoet · 15/10/2024 20:43

You don’t need religion to tell you to be a good person. Christianity does not hold a monopoly over morality and good ethics. These things existed, within previous societies, a very long time before a self proclaimed son of god came along and told people to be good.

As the saying goes- if you need fear of god/damnation to make you a good person, you are not a good person.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 16/10/2024 00:08

Babybirdmum · 15/10/2024 18:08

You can’t prove anything really, I can’t prove that I am a real person, I can’t prove that what I see with my eyes is real, I can’t prove that I’m not in the Truman show or that everyone isn’t an alien. I can’t prove this isn’t a dream.

If I was in a casino with one pound, and there were many slot machines and I had to put my coin in a slot, I’d try to watch and see which one I think would win, maybe which one had been used a few times so was likely to win soon, I might ask others what they though, I might google the different slot machines. I wouldn’t just put my coin in anything and hope for the best. If I didn’t put my coin in any, then I’ve not lost anything, but I’ve not gained anything either. That’s how I see faith. The slot machine I chose is Christianity and it’s not just based on blind faith alone, but also requires a some faith.

I had a friend who said similar when I left the church. None of us can be certain, and if you have to bet on one side or another, why wouldn't you back God, just in case. I understood her logic, but for me, it was about being true to myself and not living a lie. I knew I didn't believe and that was that.

Feelingathomenow · 16/10/2024 05:13

FjordPrefect · 15/10/2024 07:36

Like the physics things that energy and matter are neither created nor destroyed...?

i like the Kabbalahistic interpretation. Effectively that at first there was Nothing (which as there was no separation was simultaneously everything). Out of Nothing everything emanated (I hate to quote Wikipedia but it’s probably the most straightforward explanation)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin_and_Yesh

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 07:31

OneDandyPoet · 15/10/2024 20:43

You don’t need religion to tell you to be a good person. Christianity does not hold a monopoly over morality and good ethics. These things existed, within previous societies, a very long time before a self proclaimed son of god came along and told people to be good.

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

OP posts:
MoleAtTheCounter · 16/10/2024 08:02

Copernicus321 · 15/10/2024 13:52

Did he exist? As a historical figure, more than likely. Jesus is referred to by Roman historian and politician at the time Cornelius Tacitus. Tacitus didn't write about his acts but his presence in Judea, his execution by Pilate, the rise of the Christian sect in Rome and their persecutions following the burning of Rome for which they were considered to be the cause. Scholars and academics believe the accounts by Tacitus to be authentic.

Christian scholars believe; often they are ones in American universities whose tenure is dependant on belief.

The Annals of Tacitus survives in only two manuscript traditions, one containing the first half, the other the second half, the section in between is missing. There is another gap in the text: two whole years from the middle of 29AD to the middle of 31AD; that the cut is so precise and covers the year 30AD that early Christians regarded as the year of Christ’s ministry is too improbable to posit as a coincidence.

FjordPrefect · 16/10/2024 08:20

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 07:31

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

What society has/had that as a rule? I don't know of any let alone any 'other' ones. How would it be enforced? Why are they making enemies out of loved ones? Why do they have enemies in the first place? I don't have any enemies.

Lentilweaver · 16/10/2024 08:56

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 07:31

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

Buddhism.
Hinduism
Jainism
Gandhi defeated an entire empire with non-violence and turning the other cheek not very long ago.

PennyFarthingRider · 16/10/2024 08:59

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 07:31

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

Back to my earlier point about a certain type of Christian being woefully under-informed, not just about Christianity, but about other religions.

Mydoglovescheese · 16/10/2024 09:16

Babybirdmum · 14/10/2024 11:40

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

After a very long and rambling thread OP, it seems that your purpose in asking the original question is to evangelise by persuading people that faith must inevitably follow on if you believe in the historicity of Jesus. I suppose MN is as good a place as any to 'spread the good news'.
I know a great deal about Jesus and believe that he was probably a genuine, charismatic Jewish rabbi. I wonder if he were to be born today what we would make of him. I suspect that he would be considered ND and have an ASD diagnosis (if that's the current terminology).
However, belief in an historical figure does not necessarily lead to faith.

whathaveiforgotten · 16/10/2024 09:28

@Babybirdmum

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

A quick google will answer this for you. I've pasted just a few results below.

Hinduism

https://medium.com/@justinejacob19711*/love-of-enemies-in-hinduism-6e24b8fc851b#:~:text=In%20Hindu%20philosophy%2C%20the%20concept%20of%20love%20of%20enemies%20is,harm%20to%20any%20living%20being.

Buddhism

A key Buddhist insight, moreover, is that this suffering can be alleviated, or avoided altogether, precisely through practising loving kindness even toward those who wrong you; that is to say, through bringing oneself, via meditation and reflection, to love one’s enemies and wish them well.

Baháʼí Faith

The Baháʼí teachings state that Baháʼís should love all humans regardless of religion, race or community, and also should love their enemies.

AgileGreenSeal · 16/10/2024 09:47

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 16/10/2024 00:08

I had a friend who said similar when I left the church. None of us can be certain, and if you have to bet on one side or another, why wouldn't you back God, just in case. I understood her logic, but for me, it was about being true to myself and not living a lie. I knew I didn't believe and that was that.

You see I couldn’t do that, I couldn’t choose to believe in His existence as a “just in case” ploy.

In my case, He broke into my life and made Himself known to me. Why me? I don’t know. I did ask Him to though.

Anyway, now that has happened (in 1981)and the relationship has been established and has continued for all these years it would be literally impossible for me to deny His existence. He not only exists, I know Him. He speaks to me. We have a relationship.

I could as easily deny the existence of my own children as deny His. It’s reality.

TheLemonFatball · 16/10/2024 09:57

Jesus is my counsel and I talk with him everyday. I did used to go to church but I never felt comfortable. My home and the great outdoors are my church now and God is with me wherever I go.

OneDandyPoet · 16/10/2024 09:58

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 07:31

Can you tell me which other societies had love your enemy as a rule?

Centuries, even millennia before, the concept was an important idea in formed civilisations, within established societies. Look at Hinduism, the Babylonians, Buddhism, ancient Judaism, to name a few - they all had variations of this belief. And it was an important aspect of these societies, because it served to bring people together, in collaboration, for the greater good, stability and safety of those societies. People learned how to cooperate and work together. And of course these things are conducive to a better society., Even for prehistoric and primitive , societies there’s evidence of form of morality that ensured better coexistence and collaboration, and therefore meant better out comes in terms of that groups survival.

Fundamentally so, morality is an innate aspect of the human condition. Jesus and the profits did invent this notion. They just perpetuated this idea during their life times.

However, despite his message to love thy enemy, Jesus never once condemned slavery, which you would think he would, given the claim he made about being the son of god, and the rest of it. You would think he would stand up for the slaves and denounce such a terrible system of oppression?. But no, he didn’t. So why didn’t he do that, given how horrifically amoral slavery is? Why didn’t he say anything against child marriage, so prevalent during his life time? If he was so all knowing and powerful, and teaching other kinds of morality, why didn’t say that child marriage is very immoral?

No Christianity did not invent morality.

PennyFarthingRider · 16/10/2024 10:07

TheLemonFatball · 16/10/2024 09:57

Jesus is my counsel and I talk with him everyday. I did used to go to church but I never felt comfortable. My home and the great outdoors are my church now and God is with me wherever I go.

You don't get tired of the lack of replies? or you like the silent type?

Babybirdmum · 16/10/2024 10:09

PennyFarthingRider · 16/10/2024 08:59

Back to my earlier point about a certain type of Christian being woefully under-informed, not just about Christianity, but about other religions.

please do not make assumptions about me, you do not know me, I’d say that’s a prejudice statement.
I’ve read the Quran, visited synagogues, have lots of Muslim and Jewish friends. I’ve done an a level in religion and philosophy. I’ll admit my knowledge is lacking in Buddhism and Hinduism so that is something I might research some more.
in regards to Ghandi a quick google will show you he wasn’t perfect in regard to certain things I won’t go into it here as I don’t want to offend anyone

OP posts: