Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

Confirmation bias works both way you all know. Your belief god doesn’t exist is also subject to it.

There's a hell of a lot of confirmation that he doesn't exist, I'll give you that.

Who was this aimed at?

I agree that confirmation bias can be very powerful. Which is why it's always useful to ask question, look at sources and seek views and explanations from all sides of an argument and weigh the arguments based on their relative merits.

I mean, that's ultimately how I stopped believing in the Christian god and has prevented me from believing in the existence of any other gods in the time since then.

Does there? I'm not even sure that's possible but as you are I'm sure you can explain why you think this, how it's possible, why you think it's a god and how it could affect anything here if it lives outside of here.

It seems from this thread that there are many who are trying to prove or disprove the existence of Jesus Christ / God as an intellectual exercise.

I love academic study. After my conversion to Christ I spent many an hour happily engaged in studying theology, apologetics, higher criticism, the sources of the synoptic gospels etc.

But none of that is the bedrock of my belief. No, the reason for my confidence is that

“The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, “
Romans 8

when you know, you know

Well, I spent several years desperately looking for evidence that would somehow support the beliefs that I was eagerly trying to accept, but everything I found pointed to the contrary. So not really.

Regardless, I think we're different because I don't actually feel the need to "prove" my beliefs to anyone. I am not one of those evangelical atheists who feels the need to convert others to my point of view. I don't care what others think. For me, atheism isn't something that I fervently believe in, it is just an absence of a belief in God.

I have a lot of friends who have faith - both Christianity and other faiths - and I respect their beliefs. In many ways, I envy them too. I have no desire to take away something that clearly brings them comfort or peace or whatever.

What I really don't like is seeing people trying to thrust their faith on others. And especially not those who use spurious arguments to try to convince others of their own rightness. I think because it always seems so fake and because I always feel that maybe they're just trying to convince themselves. Those who are truly confident in their faith seem to just live it - without the need to "prove" anything to anyone.

I would call myself an esoteric Christian, I believe Jesus/Yeshuah ben Josef existed, but would interpret the various gospels in a different way which would see us all having the capacity to be Christ.

Howver, in a culturally Christian country I think it’s so important that we all know and understand the stories in the bible and the traditional interpretations for a number of reasons:

it helps us understand our heritage, our art, our laws. It gives us common stories that we all understand, references that form part of our language both now and in the past. It creates a societal glue.

Children should all be taught hymns. Singing together where everyone knows the words has amazing effects for both the individual and community. Being able to join in the various rituals creates a much stronger society.

it doesn’t matter if people believe or not with the exoteric form of any religion. It serves so many functions.

That's great. Seriously, good for you if it brings you joy and fulfilment.

There has to be something that exists outside energy matter time and space that started everything, which is God

Why does there have to be 'something that started everything' though?

Surely then there has to be 'something' that created God, no?

So what was that?

Eastern Orthodox Church. The other churches have different interpretations of The Trinity or of Christ's divinity so we're not in communion with them.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church# en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church#]]]]

@AgileGreenSeal

You’ve put that really well. You believe for spiritual reasons and you have a faith, and it is great you also enjoy reading and studying various texts. I’m sure you draw a lot of joy and fulfilment from this. You are really clear and honest about the bedrock of your belief. Why aren’t more Christians this honest and why are they so bothered if others, who don’t share their faith, don’t accept their ‘facts’?

The OP’s posts are frustrating because she is trying to argue that Christianity is founded in historical fact and she believes it is the most factually based of all religions. Of course that doesn’t work as many posters on this thread have written. In truth the OP believes because of her faith. I respect her right to her faith. I don’t respect misinformation about history and science.

Well I have to say that I too believe in the factual history of Jesus Christ and His ministry, His apostles etc. I haven’t seen anything to cause me to dispute the veracity of the Scriptures at all.

What I was attempting to convey, perhaps not clearly enough, is that the personal knowledge of Christ In one’s life is by revelation from God, not by intellectual reasoning. As the Lord Jesus said in response to Peter’s statement “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”

”Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.”
Matthew 16:17

No amount of human intellectual effort will ever discover these spiritual realities.

They can only be received as revelation from God Himself.

Which rather begs the question as to why he wouldn't just reveal himself to everyone.

It also raises the question of why so many Christians seem intent on converting others to their faith. Surely if God wanted more Christians, he would just "reveal himself" to more people.

“It also raises the question of why so many Christians seem intent on converting others to their faith.”

We actually aren’t called to (or able to) convert anyone.

We are called (commanded actually) to tell people the good news of Jesus Christ, and to baptise and make disciples of those who believe the message we bring.

We can’t bring anyone to faith, that’s something only God, the Holy Spirit can do. We are simply messengers, and servants of those who respond to the message.

“Which rather begs the question as to why he wouldn't just reveal himself to everyone.”

Now the hows and whys and whens of the Lord drawing people to Himself, convicting people about sin, righteousness and judgement isn’t something we can demand to know. That’s His prerogative.

We don’t form any judgments as to who will or will not respond to the Gospel. We tell everyone, as we have been commanded to do. Who responds or doesn’t respond is between each individual and God.

I knew that the answer would be something along the lines of it being impossible to know why God does what he does. That seems to be the general response to anything for which there isn't a reasonable explanation. I get why you say it but it feels like a total non-answer to me. I suspect it's one of those things that seems entirely rational when you have faith, and a total copout when you don't.

Out of interest, why do you think you are called upon to "spread the good news"? I presume that you believe that god would be capable of doing his own PR job if he chooses, so what is the point of Christians spreading the word exactly? Also, in practical terms, what do you understand to be the difference between "spreading the good news" and seeking to recruit people to join the church aka converting them? While I do absolutely agree that you can't make anyone else believe (hell, I couldn't even make myself believe!) but to all intents and purposes, "spreading the good news" seems indistinguishable from seeking to convert people, so I'm interested to know what you think the difference is and why so many Christians seem to misinterpret this difference.

I wondered (genuinely as nobody of faith has answered this whenever I've asked) anyone's thoughts on this?

This doesn't really come up as a question of faith, it's more a philosophical matter. Ds1 studied philosophy and some of the different schools of thought address this issue, but I can't remember the details. It doesn't come up in church teaching, it's a matter of whether individuals are interested to learn about the different explanations.

@T4phage

It doesn't come up in church teaching, it's a matter of whether individuals are interested to learn about the different explanations.

Absolutely, I wondered if anyone of faith could share their individual thoughts on it. I didn't expect them to share church teachings.

The poster I quoted confidently stated that there 'has to be something that started everything' as regards the universe. I wondered why they don't seem to think the same as regards God.

Christians will try to spread the Good News because we're taught to love others and part of this is wanting others to be saved. Keeping the information and belief to ourselves could literally cause someone to be damned for eternity so it's important to try to help save others. Of course, as others have pointed out, it's impossible for a person to save another, but we can always introduce the concept.

I think he was a real person that had disciples and that he performed miracles. I also believe the bible is a holy book, although I would question how much of it is the "word of God" since there are so many different versions.

I DO NOT believe that he was the son of God as God is not a man and therefore cannot take a wife and have a child.

It’s because everything inside our universe has to have a beginning, this isn’t a religious thought it’s a scientific thought, a physics thing.
So if everything inside the universe has a beginning, then where did that beginning come from?
the beginning might have been started by something that exists outside the constraints of physics - outside of time, matter and space. If it’s outside of those things then the “thing” doesn’t need a beginning (unlike everything else in the universe)

I know everything about Jesus that's in the Bible and the apocrypha, because I went to an insane religious school. I know more about Jesus than most Christians. I quite like him as a character although Peter was my favourite. I like the story about him wanting to get some figs off a fig tree but it's not fig season and he's like -- "Fuck you, fig tree!" even though this is completely ridiculous. It humanised him to me, I always assumed they included the story just to show that he was a normal young man in many ways.

We are taught that nothing created God as He has always existed. In fact, we sometimes refer to him as The Uncreated One. We don't know why or how. It just is. I suppose metaphysics might be able to answer these questions. From what I understand of the science, time doesn't exist in a linear fashion the way humans think about it, so God has always existed without the need for a starting point. I don't think our brains can conceive of this in the same way we can't process the concept of infinity or of what lies beyond the universe.

Yes, it’s like the opposite of “gatekeeping”. If I like your perfume and you don’t tell me where it’s from, that’s gatekeeping. It’s within your rights, but you’re not telling me because you don’t want me to get the perfume as well. You want to smell special. Christians want other people to know about the perfume.