Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

“why do you think you are called upon to "spread the good news"?

It His choice to use whatever means and messengers He wants- there is a point of time still in the future when conditions will be extreme and the task will be given to an angel. For now, it’s one of the activities to which every believer is called.

Why us? I can only speculate. I’ve heard it described as “one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread”. Many of us were previously hostile to God so there’s something profoundly humbling and poetic in our change of allegiance. Perhaps He chose us because we are so utterly useless on our own and are dependent on Him to actually make anything worthwhile come of it. Of ourselves, we can achieve nothing of value.

And I regret that sadly I’ve seen some efforts that were purported to be spreading the good news have been nothing of Him and all about human self-promotion.

“what do you understand to be the difference between "spreading the good news" and seeking to recruit people to join the church aka converting them?”

When people hear how God has made a way for them to know Him, to be forgiven for their wrongdoings, to be in a relationship with Him forever as a free gift (that’s the good news) and then they receive that gift, (welcoming the Gift, Jesus Christ Himself into their lives) they undergo a fundamental change spiritually. As I said before all we do is the first part- pass on the messsge. When they receive Christ they are born of God’s Spirit, connected to Him where before there was a disconnect. He is now their Lord, and it’s up to Him to decide what they do next.

Maybe my own example will help explain. When I welcomed Christ to take over my life I wasn’t attending any church meetings nor did I know any Christians. After about a year of just Him and me and the Bible every day I asked Him if I could get baptised. Immediately I was invited by someone I’d never met before to go to her church where they were baptising people. I didn’t tell her I had been asking Him if I could get baptised. She had no idea. She just felt He wanted her to ask me. That became my church for the next few years until He took me somewhere else.

So this is how I see it. We just do what He tells us to do in every situation and He organises His people into relationships and groupings (churches, if you will) as He chooses. I’ve no connection to any particular denomination, and my personal preference is house church, which is the oldest form of church and the most widely practiced form of church worldwide. I really can’t speak for anyone but myself or give reasons why they do what they do. I just do what He tells me.

I grew up in the CofE. Never believed in God literally but loved the church through the seasons. My adult view is that Jesus did exist as a man, not divine. Weddings, wine, a crew, anti establishment. Sort of a John Lennon type. Good messages. A bit of a rum bugger really. I don’t need him to be divine, he makes me smile regardless.

If an entity is outside of time, how can it transition from the state "hasn't yet created a universe" to "just created a universe"? Causality requires time.

I tried hard to be an atheist for several years, but it felt hollow and nihilistic. I then tried being a pagan, but that just felt hollow and pointless. I ended up going down some very dark paths and then became depressed. I can understand why atheists become frustrated with believers, because it takes a particular mindset in order to believe. Believers are never going to be able to provide the proof that atheists demand, so there's no point in arguing or trying to provide proof. What would proof even look like? Faith can be a decision to believe then a dogged determination to see it through. It's not easy having faith, it takes work and it takes trust. Atheists will question what the point is. The point is to have a relationship with Christ and theosis with God. Many won't see the value in this, but for those who do, it's transformative and the whole point in being alive.
We live in a scientifically materialistic age though where physical proof is demanded and expected and the belief in 'invisible sky fairies' is pathetic and worthy of derision.

I don't think there's any way of knowing.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God]]]]

Regarding the existence of God

@T4phage
"We live in a scientifically materialistic age though where physical proof is demanded and expected and the belief in 'invisible sky fairies' is pathetic and worthy of derision."

Please don't define atheists like this. I manage to ignore the Christians who tell me I have no morality, and a nihilist hole at my core-and there are plenty of them. Surely you can ignore the "sky fairy" brigade.

So your OP is coming from a point that you think you know more than most and you're actively looking to redress anyone who posts in opposition?
Nice. Not a real debate then is it, trying to draw posters in and happy to dump all over what they post? Very, erm, Christian of you.
I don't think you're going to get a gold star for acting the smart arse.

This is just such a bizarre argument to me.

Firstly, the whole concept of needing to be "saved". I don't get it, never have. It's an absurdity in my view. If we accept the starting premise that we need saving (which I don't, but we'll set that aside for the time being), then that can only be because God has inexplicably decided to set things up in that way - he is apparently all powerful so could have just decided to "save us" all in one fell swoop. In fact, that's what many Christians claim Jesus did but but no, even after that, we apparently still have to go through some sort of weird power play where we have to beg.

Then there is the problem that he only chooses to "reveal himself" to the chosen ones in any case, so if you're not lucky enough to be one of the favourites, you're not going to get saved anyway, no matter how much you beg. Can you really worship a good that is seemingly so capricious and unjust?

And then there is this weird concept that Christians have to tell the non-favoured ones to whom God hasn't bothered to unveil himself because otherwise those poor sods will end up damned for eternity...but again, that would be God's choice if they were, so why not just cut out the middle man?

Then finally there is the issue that Christians probably put far more people off Christianity and Jesus by trying to "spread the news" than they would if they just quietly got on with things. The people who are motivated by their faiths to lead lives of dedication and service without making a big song and dance of it - surely those are the people who actually inspire others, not the ones who go round trying to "share information".

This is the most thoughtful, balanced and helpful posts I’ve read on this site. Thank you!

But what if they don’t like that perfume, and they completely reject it? Perfume preferences are very subjective, and there isn’t such thing really as a bad smelling perfume, as people like different things. So in your analogy, a decent and good human being, gets past this gate keeper, and says “nah, I do not like this smell”, what happens next? Does he go the perfume hell for eternity?

I absolutely agree with you that there is no point in trying to prove something that relies on faith, but I don't think it's necessarily the case that atheists are demanding such proof. Quite the contrary, actually. It's much more often the case that Christians are seeking to provide proof (or, at least, what they perceive to be proof) because they mistakenly believe that this might win people over. The OP is a good example of this, and the Alpha course follows the same logic.

I'm actually entirely happy to respect the fact that some of my friends have faith and I don't need them to justify their reasons for that at all...it's personal to them and none of my business.

As for faith being a choice or a decision? No, I don't agree that it is. You can't just decide to believe something. I've tried, and I was just kidding myself. You can go through the motions. You can pretend that you believe to yourself and others. You can keep trying to believe. You could keep it up for an entire lifetime if you so chose, and perhaps many people do. But fundamentally, if deep down you just don't buy it, then there isn't a choice to be made, other than the one about whether you're going to bother keeping up the pretence.

So if it isn't a choice, does that make faith a gift? And if so, why would a loving God only bestow that gift on some people and not others? And is a god like that really one worth worshipping?

None of it stands up to scrutiny when you start looking at it. It really does just come down to faith in the end. You either have it or you don't. I tried and didn't. I'm much happier now for having given up trying.

This is an interesting post.

I can't say any of the things you've expressed resonate with me, but it's insightful nonetheless.

I don't really understand the notion of "trying" to either have belief or not believe. To me it just "is". I don't have to try to be an atheist any more than I have to try to observe the law of gravity.

It's not easy having faith, it takes work and it takes trust

I'm sure it does, because to me it looks like nothing more than a convoluted exercise in self-delusion and self-gaslighting, so I'm not surprised people struggle with it.

We live in a scientifically materialistic age though where physical proof is demanded

I don't think this is quite accurate with regard to the gods/no gods debate. Personally, I'm not interested enough to go demanding anyone provide proof of anything, but I do expect that if people are going to go making extraordinary claims and expect me to take them seriously and respect what they believe, then they should be able to provide something of substance that lends credence to those claims, otherwise I'll continue to regard them as nothing but cranks. I respect your right to believe what ever you like, but I see no reason at all to give your actual beliefs themselves any respect when you can not or will not provide anything to justify them. I suppose what I'm really saying is I'll defend your right against anyone to believe in what I consider to be absolute nonsense, but I'm not going to refrain from telling you it's absolute nonsense when you ask me to accept it but can not justify it.

I don't use terms like "sky fairies" and so on myself, because I see that as a bit banal, pointless, and nothing more than an attempt to goad and provoke, but at the same time I don't accept that there is anything remotely offensive or intolerant by saying to someone "I'm sorry, but what you believe in is a heap of nonsense that requires the abandonment of common sense".

Why would you try to be an atheist? How do you do that?

I would love to be an ardent believer. It would probably provide me comfort and joy. Luckily the faith I was born in- Hinduism- is a very broad church and recognises atheists as Hindus. So I can continue being betwixt and between.

Like the physics things that energy and matter are neither created nor destroyed...?

He was just a guy
Probably a herbalist
Very charismatic
He didn't come back to life because that's impossible

Oh also he was most likely middle eastern.

It wasn't a personal attack, merely a description of the current position.

@T4phage "It wasn't a personal attack, merely a description of the current position."

But it isn't. There are atheists who think like that-because some people are ignorant and rude. It's not a characteristic of atheists!

Because the churches I was attending left me feeling dead inside.

It's not easy having faith, it takes work and it takes trust

I have heard people say this before and I never understand what it means.

How exactly can it be difficult to have faith? If you believe in something, then surely having faith is the easy bit? Living in accordance with that faith is the difficult challenge.

If you have to "work" at having faith, then I would question whether that is faith at all, because surely what you're actually saying is that you have nagging doubts that you have to work hard to try and squash. As a pp said, it felt to me very like I was just gaslighting myself... now that is hard work, certainly, but I wouldn't call it faith.

Of course people have doubts, it's normal. Anyone who says they don't are lying. Of course it's a big ask for God to expect people to believe in something they can't see, hear, smell or touch. He knows this. In Eastern Orthodoxy we also believe in the literal presence of the evil one, which is constantly trying to separate us from God.

I think asking a none believer to believe is akin to asking someone to love another random human with whom you have no connection or even a liking for. If someone explains to me why they love their husband I'd be "nice, but don't expect me to feel the same way".

It's natural for none believers to be wondering what on earth motivates us to have faith and I can't give people what they want when they demand an explanation.

I agree that it's natural to have doubts, but my conclusion from that was not that faith was hard work but rather an acknowledgement of the fact that I didn't actually believe.

Some posters on this thread have talked about God "revealing himself" to them. If this actually means anything, then why would they have any doubts after such a big reveal?

Another poster has said that when you know, you just know. But if you really know, as opposed to just thinking or hoping, then surely there is no space for doubt?

A version of faith that requires the " believer" to constantly work hard at keeping their own doubts in check doesn't sound like faith to me, it sounds like wishful thinking and a fear of facing the unpalatable truth that you know deep down inside. At least, that's how it felt to me.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the concept of faith because I have been framing it as being about belief. But if what you say is correct and nobody really believes without having to squash down significant doubts, then perhaps what Christians mean when they talk about faith is actually what I would call hope?

FWIW, I'm not asking you to explain your position... for me, religion and spirituality are very personal matters that shouldn't ever need to be justified to other people. If it works for you, then I celebrate that, genuinely.

I guess I'm curious to know what your opinion would be with regard to someone that found that their doubts consistently far outweighed any belief.

Would you think that they were just being honest with themselves if they finally accepted that they didn't actually believe at all, and therefore concluded that "faith" wasn't for them?

Or would you think that they just needed to work harder in order to quash their doubts? And if the latter, what would be the difference between this and gaslighting yourself?