Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

Agnostic brought up by atheists - without looking at other answers:

Historical figure; Jewish; believed to be son of God and the Virgin Mary; worked as a carpenter; performed various miracles - healing, loaves and fishes; had 12 disciples; was betrayed by Judas; crucified by the Romans, said to have risen again 3 days later; believed by Christians to have atoned for man's sins by dying willingly on the cross.

ETA I understand Jesus is also a prophet in Islam

Hello! It’s interesting the discussion about doubts, I’ve just been looking back through all the messages. Thanks for replying everyone.
Personally I get doubts in all parts of my life I’ve never done anything and thought I am 100% certain this will be perfect, like jobs, relationships, parenting style. Heck I can’t even decide what to watch on telly sometimes! But doubts in themselves don’t worry me. I just see them as a prompt to reflect. So I do some reflecting, reading, thinking, praying and then for me that has always led to me staying on the path of faith. It’s like a marriage, sometimes there’s ups and downs and some people choose to stay together when others would get divorced. Does that mean one choice is better than the other? Is the divorced person “right” and the married person “wrong”? Not in my opinion. But you have got to think where it is all leading, what is the meaning of life etc.
i saw another post stating that people have moved away from faith due to increase in education, it seems to imply that religious people are uneducated which is unfair. There are many brilliant minds who chose faith. I actually think it could be because we are further away from death than ever before in history perhaps with a false sense of security around our own mortality, that’s just a my personal theory.

We're taught to pray when we have doubts. The doubts generally go away. Whether prayer is a psychological coping mechanism or God does genuinely help calm people's fears and doubts is down to interpretation of course.

Again, I don't really understand the marriage/divorce analogy. For me, that would be more akin to a decision to stay in the church or not, regardless of belief, because it's about practical decision making rather than what you feel inside. I know how I feel about my husband and cannot necessarily choose to feel differently, but I can choose to respond to those feelings in different ways.

I guess I'm more interested in what people actually feel deep down and whether they have a deep unshakeable belief that God is real, Jesus is his son etc. Whether they choose to stay in the church or not isn't necessarily a reflection of those beliefs, any more than staying in a marriage wouldn't necessarily be a reflection of how someone actually felt about their spouse. People make decisions for all manner of different reasons.

I had previously assumed that, when people refer to "having faith", they were referring to some sort of inner knowing rather than a conscious decision to set aside any doubts and focus on the path that they have chosen. But it's clear from the comments on here that faith isn't actually about any kind of inner certainty or belief as such, but rather about where and how you choose to focus your attention. That does help me to understand the comments about faith being a choice/hard work, so thank you - they never really made sense to me previously.

I was told to pray when I had doubts, and I dutifully did so. They didn't go away though - they grew.

I think we've become more individualistic and far less inclined to consider the impact we have on others around us. Not everyone if course (universal disclaimer), but enough for it to be causing many social and interpersonal problems within society. Christianity teaches people to love others and treat people as you'd want to be treated yourself. Warmth, compassion and practical assistance in times of need are also part of it. Many none believers will do this naturally - my Church would argue that this drives comes from The Lord regardless of belief - but following a faith provides a framework that enables the believers to do these things and have this right attitude regardless of individual personality and harmful drives. Of course people fall through the net and churchgoers can be every bit as awful as anyone else, with a nice helping of hypocrisy thrown in, but over all it works.

Church also provides a ready made family (and all the angst that that can entail), a support system, networking, emotional support and friendship. Some people who go to church don't even believe or they go for cultural reasons to have a connection to others from their own country. These are some of the practical reasons and benefits to having a church in your life.

Like the OP says, it's fine to have doubts, explore them and they can help you to gain a deeper understanding and connection with your faith.

I was told to pray when I had doubts, and I dutifully did so. They didn't go away though - they grew.

Yes...
I come from a very Christian family, grew up in a church I loved. I really didn't want to stop believing, I earnestly prayed for faith ... but nothing. Everything made so much more sense once I took the final leap of unbelief.

Church also provides a ready made family (and all the angst that that can entail), a support system, networking, emotional support and friendship.

That I miss. But I can't fake belief and can't manage the hypocrisy of 'using' the church without it.

Yes certainly for me this is the case, it’s more of a choice. That’s why people can choose to leave the faith, as obviously no one in this whole world can say for certain what happens when we die or why we’re here. I’d say though once you’re on the path and have been through the trials and tests of faith and come out the other side it does help to strengthen your faith again like people say this may be something that is given to us rather than anything we’ve done (eg praying for strength in faith and god giving it to us). For example I find it hard to imagine how people felt who are killed for their faith, to not give in and to never deny their faith even whilst being tortured requires some immense strength

Did he exist? As a historical figure, more than likely. Jesus is referred to by Roman historian and politician at the time Cornelius Tacitus. Tacitus didn't write about his acts but his presence in Judea, his execution by Pilate, the rise of the Christian sect in Rome and their persecutions following the burning of Rome for which they were considered to be the cause. Scholars and academics believe the accounts by Tacitus to be authentic.

I guess it becomes a habit like everything else.

A habitual suspension of disbelief, effectively, that gets stronger with practice.

In many ways, I envy those who can make that work. I really wanted to make it work for myself, but I just don't think I have the personality type that would enable me to live with the cognitive dissonance that would have been required to maintain it. I have a tendency to over-analyse stuff, I suppose, and the analytical bit of my brain wouldn't ever stop picking holes in the narrative.

Well yes, this happened to me when I was visiting the other church. I don't experience this anymore though. Of course I would argue that it's because we are the only Church and everyone else is just winging it by themselves and relying on individual acts which may or may not bear fruit, but I wouldn't expect that idea to go down very well amongst other Christians 😂

Yeah, probably not!

That wouldn't have been a solution for me either, I'm afraid. Quite the contrary...I always found the notion from some Christians that they were the only ones that were on the right path one of the most off-putting and least believable aspects of the religion. Cutting it down even further to just one church within Christianity would have sent me running for the hills immediately!

But I am genuinely glad that you found something that clearly works for you.

I mean, we're not trying to argue that other Christians don't have grace, or The Spirit, just that it's more difficult in other churches and is down to individual drive and prayer which can be hard to sustain by yourself. I couldn't manage it and I felt very lonely and Not Like Other Churchgoers.

Perhaps I have an inherited ancestral memory thing going on as I have Coptic dna apparently 😂

Thank you for this reply. It’s interesting that you say you want to believe if you could turn off this side of your brain where you pick holes in things. What sort of benefits of believing do you see that draws you towards it?

As well I must add that I didn’t fall on my knees with a hallelujah moment where I suddenly came to faith. I also grew up in a religious family. I believed but always found parts a challenge. I came to a new area, I joined a church outside of the denomination I was brought up in, I went in with my “observation” hat on, not trying to get too involved or invested, but 6 years later im still there and I’ve grown on this journey.

Hi there! I’m sorry I am a bit ignorant when it comes to the Eastern Orthodox Church, I was raised Catholic now go to a Protestant church. Can you explain what you mean about other churches finding it harder to bear fruit? I know I could just google it but it’s better when someone who experienced it tells you I think.

We believe that individuals can have The Spirit, but not necessarily other Churches, so it's down to individual congregants to pray and follow Christianity and hopefully gain the gift of The Spirit.

The Roman Catholics are our cousins, but they've added on or altered many things which we regard as heretical beliefs. They also changed the interpretation of the Trinity which is the main element that separates us as well as Papal infallibility (look up The Filioque for the difference in The Trinity belief).

Protestantism has taken things a step - several steps in some cases - further with the focus on the individual and grace without works - what is Christianity without good works? Christ Himself ordered his followers to clothe the poor and feed the hungry etc. The result, from what I observed, is that God is reduced to the role of pocket magician as the individual is in the knowledge that they have the free gift of The Spirit simply by believing. This can lead to egotism and false expectations - utilising The Lord as a magician who grants every wish. Again, I'm not referring to individuals, just the effect that those churches can have on their members. In extremis, it results in the prosperity 'gospel' which is downright satanic.

All this talk of heretics and satanism is giving me unpleasant memories of the many people who have tried to convert me, sometimes on the high street.

I'm sorry. I don't do things like that to people. I'm only answering questions on here about Church doctrine. It's 2000 years old so some of the language is going to be archaic and somewhat to the point.

Why are you on this thread if you dislike talking about religion? This isn’t the high street, this is Mumsnet religion and philosophy chat.

Talking about religion doesn't necessarily have to mean bringing in heretics for the simple reason that many religions don't have the concept.

The Church does have the concept though. I'm not sure how else to phrase it. My Church isn't full of hellfire and threats, but we do have the language to describe certain things which crop up in discourse about Christianity.

Yes thats my main problem with Abrahamic religions. The hellfire and damnation in various degrees followed by colonialism and imperialism dressed up as Christian charity.

Thanks. I don't think I do actually want to believe any more, though for a very long time I did. I think I'm totally at peace now with not believing, and much happier for no longer trying.

As to what initially drew me to want to believe, that's a good question. I suppose it was the desire to feel that there is some sort of benign order behind all of the chaos in the world - a reason for everything, if if the reasons were unknowable. Plus theidea of having a supreme being on whom you can depend and in whom you can trust when times are tough was very appealing - a bit like small children depend on their parents to make things right with the world, I suppose. And perhaps the idea of being part of something bigger than just myself? I also enjoyed the social side of things, the sense of community, the routine of it, and the singing. I miss the singing!

The problem was, I just didn't believe in the basic tenets of Christianity, and the more I studied and thought about it, the less it made sense to me. It took me a long time to admit to myself that I didn't actually believe because I kept trying to push the doubts aside, but deep down, I knew for a long time before actually leaving the church that I didn't consider any of it to be true. I played the game for a while though, kept hoping and kept praying. The constant gaslighting of myself was really stressful though, and I felt like a fraud. So I decided to be honest with myself and it was such a relief to be able to accept that I just didn't believe.

A part of me was sorry to leave it all behind, but a part of me was glad to be my authentic self again. I still think people are incredibly lucky if they have a faith in which they are not plagued by doubts - whether that's Christianity or something else entirely. I don't feel any envy towards those who are stuck in the cognitive dissonance that I once experienced, because for me, that was an intolerable place to be.