Are religions in the 21st century more about cultural identity than a fundamental belief in supernatural beings and divine intervention?

[mids2019]

85% of people in the world believe in a religion. but in the western world at least there are few in my opinion that would attest to an understanding of a supernatural God or ihave an absolute belief in the possibility of miracles which defy well known physical.laws.

Is modern religion more a mean a of expressing cultural identity and a way of establishing common rules for living based on a religious moral code. Religion seems to be used as means of establishing a tribe with due regard to ancestry of that religious tribe that sets out an identity and a persons place in the world.

For instance I was talking to a Muslim woman and though she was devout in the sense of wearing hijab and following an Islamic code of conduct she gave little thought to nature of Allah/God, the existence of supernatural brings such as angels or the possibility of miracles. The woman thought such existential thoughts were not necessary in her day to day life and she has an absolute understanding of natural science (being in a medical field)

Are the major religions now more about tribal identity than a full belief in something greater than the physical world?

@Patentlyuntrue

Going to church, praying, doing charitable works, reading the Bible etc. doesn't make someone a Christian. All these things are fruitless if that person doesn't love God

Sorry, how are charitable works 'fruitless' if someone doesn't believe in (or love) God?

It’s “fruitless” in the sense that while a recipient may well benefit from it temporarily such works do not achieve anything spiritually worthwhile or lasting in the life of the one who does them. There is no lasting (eternal) “fruit”.

consider this very sobering statement of the Lord Jesus Christ…
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name and in Your name drive out demons and in Your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”
Matthew 7: 21-23

Performative “good works” (even those carried out in His name) are insufficient in terms of gaining access to the Kingdom of God. Only a relationship will do- knowing Him & being known by Him.

Agile - people who don’t believe in a good aren’t doing good deeds to ‘gain access to the kingdom of god’ though, they are doing because they think it’s the right thing to do - to help others. The ‘fruit’ is the benefit that others get, not in an extra credit to get to heaven.

I understand that, Sandy.

The question was asked how such works can be described as “fruitless”.
I’ve given my response from a Biblical Christian perspective.

A homeless person shivering in a doorway doesn’t really care about the religious or non-religious motives of the person giving them soup or running a night shelter. Or whether the act of giving is of any spiritual benefit to the giver.

To me, an atheist who actively carries out helpful charitable work for the community is of far higher moral standing than a Christian who stays at home praying, or whose community activities mainly consist of ‘spreading the Word’.

Hear hear. And the atheist does it, if she does it, in the full knowledge that there’s no account being kept in heaving by an all-seeing deity, no divine Brownie points being earned. No one in the sky cares. The only difference it makes is that someone hungry got fed, someone suicidal or lonely got listened to.

Turning the conversation slightly, there are some funny anecdotes on Mumsnet (I think it was the first Mike Pilivachi thread) of how people in certain strands of evangelical Christianity choose to interpret even minor coincidences as messages from God, confirming things that they would quite like to happen anyway. Something like:

‘I prayed for God to send me a sign and the very next morning I saw a bus going to X Town. This means that God wants me to take a church job in X Town and do his work there.’

[Yes, of course he did, because X Town is a thriving university town with lots of lovely young students and young professionals who will be easy to convert, generous with their time and enthusiastic about coming to church.’]

The ‘I was a Teenage Fundamentalist’ podcast is also quite funny on the business of ‘Giving a Word’:

’Brother, I have a word for you. God spoke to me and told me that you have special gifts and are going to do great things for Jesus in this church.’

[Delightfully unspecific, yet will flatter the young recipient and keep them diligently working away for the church in the hope that these great things emerge.]

Then we get onto ‘speaking in tongues’ and being ‘slain in the spirit’. The IWATF podcast has a whole episode explaining how one of the presenters was taken aside and ‘taught’ how to speak in tongues, basically repeating words faster and faster until a ‘tongue’ emerged.

As for being ‘slain in the spirit’ I remember a Mumsnet thread where countless posters described how they had been pushed to the floor by leaders at big worship events, supposedly pushed down by the spirit. They had all sadly thought that they were the only ones who were not doing it properly and that they were spiritually inadequate…

I do actually think that churches have some value in bringing people together and acting as hubs for community work, but I think that there should be far better safeguards against manipulation and abuse. It should also be against the law to fundraise for disseminating religion as a charitable purpose and also against the law to recruit or evangelise to any under the age of 21.

It's a very Fundie Protestant comment. I would take it with a pinch of salt.

This.

There’s no question of the value of kind deeds to the recipient. Of course the homeless person is helped, that’s not in doubt!

Where the confusion sometimes arises is that Biblical Christianity is clear that such actions, helpful as they may be, are not the way into a saving relationship with God. There’s only one way that happens - through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In other words, despite popular belief, you can’t earn a place in heaven or go to heaven because of your “good works”.

You may judge the “good works” of an atheist to be superior to another person’s behaviour however you are not the Judge.

There is a Judge, and He will judge each person justly according to what they have done. The Judge is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your ignorance and arrogance is increasing with every post!

It now appears you’re claiming the right to ‘gatekeep’ every religion, and not just your own one of Christianity. You seriously seem to think you can tell me that I’m not a cultural Jew, and that other posters aren’t culturally Muslims etc.

My identity is unequivocally Jewish culturally, but I have no religious belief. That makes perfect sense to me and many others on this thread, yet seems to be a concept you’re unwilling to even consider. Perhaps if you had grown up in a country where your religion, and yes all the cultural aspects associated with it, were a minority rather than the norm you’d have a clearer understanding.

The existence of the fake does not negate the existence of the genuine. There is much deception, true- and this is to be expected. The scriptures constantly warn against false teachers, deceptive doctrines etc.

” also against the law to recruit or evangelise to any under the age of 21.”

This will force Christians to choose between obedience to the state and obedience to their Lord as evangelism (also known as the Great Commission) is a specific command to every follower of Christ.

Many other states around the world have implemented variations on this theme. I would be surprised if this became law in the UK. Of course I would not comply.

Or an entire sackful of salt. 😀

It confirms my sense that fundamentalists of virtually any stripe suffer from a total lack of a sense of humour or irony.

When I was about 13 my best friend’s parents, who had been ordinarily committed Catholics, got involved in some kind of charismatic movement that used to meet in members’ houses, and she and I would be in hysterics in the hallway as people ‘spoke in tongues’ and did a lot of arm-waving amidst her parents collection of Lladrò figurines (but perhaps it would have suggested incorrect priorities if they had put them away in case they were smashed by people being ‘slain in the spirit’?)

Snort. See previous posts about fundamentalists lacking a sense of humour.

Would it really be such a wrench to your conscience to restrict your evangelising to those old enough to get into night clubs?

I think religion is all about control, and too many people use/have used it to justify doing terrible things or for preventing change. At a time without authority to enforce rules e.g. no murdering, it's useful to have a group of people believe they'll go to hell or equivalent for the crime. So I'd agree, it's about keeping a culture going/preventing change/enforcing control. The culture enforces these things now rather than a fear of supernatural beings.

I've met lots of lovely Evangelical Christians who have beliefs of this type but I don't think baldly stating it in those terms on an anonymous forum is really what's meant by spreading the Gospel. It's not a reflection of the entirety of the Christian faith, anyway (Orthodox, Catholic, mainstream Anglican and others wouldn't put it like that) so I felt I should comment, although I don't want to offend anyone. But it can be quite off-putting I think.

I've never experienced 'Charismatic' worship myself but it certainly sounds colourful!

I have specific reasons for concerns about evangelism towards young people. I would also recommend that religious fundraising from young people under the age of twenty one is prohibited for the same reason.

To give two examples:

On a large scale, the current safeguarding scandal in the Church of England relating to Mike Pilivachi who led huge youth events called ‘Soul Survivor’ but was later found to have carried out spiritual and physical abuse of young men, many of whom were first recruited or heavily influenced by these events.

There are many accounts of how churches and religious youth festivals use emotional music, darkness, lighting effects etc to try to create a heightened atmosphere in which young people (often teenagers) will feel a pressure to come forward and make a public commitment to faith. This is highly manipulative, especially towards young people who may, rightly, be immature or impulsive due to their stage of development.

On a small scale a young relative of mine first joined the Christian Union on arriving at university. (Fine, it’s a student society - what could be the harm in that?*) She was then persuaded to begin attending a church off campus, then migrated to an even more evangelical church. (It turned out that these churches actually employed ‘outreach workers’ to go onto campus, mingle with students and recruit them to attend church.) A year or so down the line she ‘donated’ a four-figure sum of money to support the church, at a time when she was a full time student and almost entirely supported by her parents. Financial exploitation of young people who don’t have an income is pretty low in my view!

So those are the reasons why I believe that additional safeguards need to be put in place to prevent exploitation and abuse of young people in religious organisations.

*Except that Christian Unions aren’t just harmless student societies run by teenagers. They are supported and affiliated to an organisation called UCCF, which has an explicit mission to recruit young people from universities. The organisation has also had its own internal scandal…

For some information and concerns about UCCF and Christian Unions see here:
https://survivingchurch.org/2024/03/27/uccf-again-some-recent-developments/

I think the large evangelicals city churches are probably largely attended by believers.

I agree @Sandyankles, which is why I also travel into the nearest town - mainly to have fellowship with genuine believers. I do still try to support the smaller local churches too though.

Sorry, how are charitable works 'fruitless' if someone doesn't believe in (or love) God?

@whathaveiforgotten As @AgileGreenSeal and @yellowroses78 have explained it wonderfully, I won’t go over it again. However, I did not say we shouldn’t be helping people - quite the opposite.

It's a very Fundie Protestant comment. I would take it with a pinch of salt.

@AderynBach Nice try, but I rather like the term!

It now appears you’re claiming the right to ‘gatekeep’ every religion, and not just your own one of Christianity.

I'll ignore the personal comments @Kneidlach and it’s cultural Christianity I have the beef with.

You seriously seem to think you can tell me that I’m not a cultural Jew

I happen to love the Jewish people @Kneidlach Although, I don’t mind admitting, I am secretly hoping you’ll recognise and accept Jesus/Yeshua as your messiah. 😉

It confirms my sense that fundamentalists of virtually any stripe suffer from a total lack of a sense of humour or irony.

Well, you sound delightful @FlaggyShore.

she and I would be in hysterics in the hallway as people ‘spoke in tongues’

That’s all perfectly fine if you’re into that, I personally prefer to speak in tongues quietly at home behind closed doors, as does our lovely Vicar.

It's not a reflection of the entirety of the Christian faith, anyway

I happen to be Anglican @AderynBach

Salvation by grace alone, not through good works, is perhaps the most crucial and basic aspect of Christianity. It's not some wacko idea only held by zealouts. It's what differentiates Christianity from all the other mainstream Abrahamic religions. Jesus and Paul taught again and again that you can only enter the Kingdom by faith in Jesus's death as the atonement for our sins, as we are completely incapable of saving ourselves through adherence to the law or good works.

There's no doubt that charitable works are beneficial to the recipient, just that they can't earn you a place in heaven. This is really very basic Christian teaching.

I'm one of these people who goes to a central church rather than one of my local ones. The reason is because the teaching in my local churches is very poor. Church is a place where God's people gather to hear His word taught faithfully and encourage each other in the truth. In many churches, the sermons do not faithfully expound God's word, but pick themes and apply bible verses to them out of context. I've been to local churches where the sermon had absolutely no relevance to the Bible reading. Seeing as church leaders' main job is to steward God's word and ensure the flock are maturing in their faith, I couldn't attend a church that holds biblical teaching in such low regard.

This isn't to say there aren't plenty of faithful and biblical local churches, just that if there isn't one it's best to go elsewhere, rather than attend your local church for the sake of it.

Similarly there are many large, central, vibrant churches which have very poor teaching and a terrible church culture. It's really about finding a church that upholds the gospel, faithfully stewards the Word and seeks to fulfil the great commission. It's not about finding a nice social club or community centre, or somewhere with an exciting "vibe".

Amen 🙌

I was initially referring to the comment that good works are 'fruitless', and the implication that anyone who isn't a professing Christian is considered beyond God's grace. This is not the only Christian position and I would call it pretty extreme.
For example, the Catholic position is explained as follows in the Catechism:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation."
I haven't said anything about relying on works or not needing grace, I think you misunderstood me. That's fine, I'm not here to debate, just explaining that other views are available.

and Amen 😊 Hallelujah! 🙌🏻