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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Are religions in the 21st century more about cultural identity than a fundamental belief in supernatural beings and divine intervention?

144 replies

mids2019 · 07/09/2024 08:00

85% of people in the world believe in a religion. but in the western world at least there are few in my opinion that would attest to an understanding of a supernatural God or ihave an absolute belief in the possibility of miracles which defy well known physical.laws.

Is modern religion more a mean a of expressing cultural identity and a way of establishing common rules for living based on a religious moral code. Religion seems to be used as means of establishing a tribe with due regard to ancestry of that religious tribe that sets out an identity and a persons place in the world.

For instance I was talking to a Muslim woman and though she was devout in the sense of wearing hijab and following an Islamic code of conduct she gave little thought to nature of Allah/God, the existence of supernatural brings such as angels or the possibility of miracles. The woman thought such existential thoughts were not necessary in her day to day life and she has an absolute understanding of natural science (being in a medical field)

Are the major religions now more about tribal identity than a full belief in something greater than the physical world?

OP posts:
Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:12

Why do you bother with all that if it doesn't actually mean anything? @FlaggyShore

FlaggyShore · 07/09/2024 13:12

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:09

babies going to hell if they haven't been baptised.

Total codswallop @WonderingWanda

maybe some of you can tell me how God speaks to you?

It is not as an audible voice (though extremely rarely it could be). God speaks to me in many ways - through the Holy Spirit, scripture, His creation, other people, my conscience and dreams.

I wanted Sandyankles' take on it @FlaggyShore and like others have said, Christian + atheist/agnostic is not possible.

It absolutely is. Cultural Christianity has nothing to do with belief.

FlaggyShore · 07/09/2024 13:13

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:12

Why do you bother with all that if it doesn't actually mean anything? @FlaggyShore

What do you mean?

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:14

I think that’s always been the case

I mean obviously pre enlightenment they did a job of explaining how the physical world got here, but I don’t think that’s something people thought about day to day anymore than we do now. And I think a lot people were fairly cynical / disinterested in the woo woo stuff - it’s not hard to figure out that most of it was a money making scheme for the church

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:16

It absolutely is. Cultural Christianity has nothing to do with belief.

Then it should be re-named @FlaggyShore because it isn't Christianity.

What do you mean?

What's the point of getting baptised and confirmed or going to Mass and celebrating religious days etc. if you have no belief in the God they are centred around?

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:18

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:14

I think that’s always been the case

I mean obviously pre enlightenment they did a job of explaining how the physical world got here, but I don’t think that’s something people thought about day to day anymore than we do now. And I think a lot people were fairly cynical / disinterested in the woo woo stuff - it’s not hard to figure out that most of it was a money making scheme for the church

Edited

Then how do you explain the many devout Christians over the course of history who died horrifying deaths for the sake of their faith?

HowardTJMoon · 07/09/2024 13:18

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 12:52

Not necessarily, I was just trying to give you the bigger picture. Questioning God is not a sin. To err is human. Even Jesus questioned God!

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matt.27 vs 46

Jesus is supposed to be God. Therefore any prohibition against humans questioning God clearly isn't going to cover God questioning God.

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:20

Rather pedantic but I'll give you that @HowardTJMoon 😉

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:21

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 10:55

@Sandyankles Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'culturally Christian' though. Being a Christian means to have a relationship with and follow Jesus - believing in and loving Him with your whole heart and as a result, keeping His commands. The early followers of Jesus didn't call it Christianity, it was known as The Way. Jesus called out the religious leaders at that time for being prideful of what they perceived as their righteousness, when in fact they were 'spiritually dead' -

www.gotquestions.org/seven-woes.html

Going to church, praying, doing charitable works, reading the Bible etc. doesn't make someone a Christian. All these things are fruitless if that person doesn't love God.

Culturally Christian just means that it’s part of the culture you identify with and thus it’s part of your make up. I am very much culturally Christian as are many people in the Uk, the Christian calendar, church buildings, communities, moral guidelines, art, music, influence on literature etc etc are all important to me, and although I don’t believe in a god, they do inform my relationship with a search for meaning. Plenty of people of Jewish, Muslim, Hindu faiths feel the same

Beforetheend · 07/09/2024 13:21

I think that humans are fundamentally religious - in that they have an incredible capacity to believe things completely at odds with reason and logic. Most people form their opinions (which they easily confuse with facts) from shared group consensus while gaslighting themselves into a belief that they are applying intelligent thought to an issue. And it is far easier to convince someone through emotional appeal than demonstrating factual reality.

Some people are members of organised religion but others express this in secular forms, through politics, social and environmental issues.

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:24

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:18

Then how do you explain the many devout Christians over the course of history who died horrifying deaths for the sake of their faith?

I mean it’s always been the case for most people - there were very religious people then as there are now, but most were keeping their heads down and fully committed to pyre dodging

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:28

PP said, a lot people were fairly cynical / disinterested in the woo woo stuff. @theduchessofspork

I maintain, you can't be a Christian without faith in Jesus and naturally, by extension, God.

SugarHorseSpooks · 07/09/2024 13:33

The Nature of Religion in the 21st Century: Belief, Identity, and Practice

In the 21st century, the role of religion has evolved, reflecting broader societal changes and varying personal experiences. This evolution prompts critical questions about the nature of religious belief and practice. Specifically, we must explore whether contemporary religions are more about cultural identity than a profound belief in something greater than the physical world. Additionally, the issue of whether one can be considered a member of a religion based solely on spiritual belief, without traditional practices, raises important considerations about the interplay between internal conviction and external expressions of faith.

Religion as Cultural Identity

Religion has historically served as a cornerstone of cultural identity, acting as a marker of ethnic, national, or cultural heritage. In many societies, religious affiliation is intertwined with cultural traditions, such as festivals, dietary laws, and rituals. This intertwining often means that religious practice can serve as a means of preserving cultural heritage and fostering a sense of community, even among those whose adherence to the faith’s doctrinal elements may be less stringent.

For instance, in multicultural societies, individuals might engage in religious practices more as a means of connecting with their cultural roots rather than as a manifestation of deep theological conviction. This shift towards cultural identity can be observed in various religious communities where traditional practices are maintained for social and familial reasons, rather than for their religious significance.

The Dual Role of Religion: Belief vs. Practice

While cultural identity plays a significant role in religious practice, the core tenets of religion often involve profound beliefs in supernatural beings or divine intervention. In Islam, for example, the Shahada—the declaration of faith in the oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad—is central to being considered a Muslim. Belief in these fundamental tenets is crucial, regardless of the extent to which an individual adheres to external practices such as prayer, fasting, or mosque attendance.

Despite the importance of external practices, many adherents continue to hold deep spiritual beliefs. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and other major religions still have significant numbers of followers who prioritize their spiritual convictions and seek divine guidance. The tension between internal belief and external practice is acknowledged within religious discourse, where personal faith may sometimes diverge from traditional practices.

Secularization and Changing Patterns

Secularization has led to a decline in traditional religious observance in many parts of the world, particularly in Western societies. In these contexts, religious affiliation may increasingly reflect cultural identity rather than active belief. Individuals might identify with a religion more for its cultural significance and social belonging than for its doctrinal elements.

This trend does not negate the existence of genuine spiritual beliefs among adherents but highlights a shift towards viewing religion through a cultural lens. For some, religious practices are maintained as part of cultural and familial traditions rather than as expressions of personal faith.

The Role of Physical Markers and Cultural Practices
Physical markers and cultural practices play a significant role in defining and expressing religious belief. Religious symbols, attire, and rituals serve as outward signs of faith, helping to convey religious identity to others. These practices often reinforce community bonds and cultural continuity.

However, the presence of these physical markers does not always fully encompass the depth of personal belief. An individual may have a profound internal conviction in their faith without always displaying it through conventional practices. The distinction between internal belief and external practice highlights that religious identity is not solely defined by observable actions but also by personal conviction.

Internal Belief vs. External Practice

The relationship between internal belief and external practice is complex. While traditional religious practices such as attending services and performing rituals are important, personal faith and spirituality also play a crucial role in religious identity. An individual might hold a deep belief in a deity or divine principle while not consistently engaging in traditional practices.

Theological perspectives vary on this issue. Some scholars emphasize the importance of both belief and practice, while others focus on the sincerity of internal faith. In many religious communities, the balance between these aspects influences how individuals are perceived and accepted.

Conclusion

The nature of religion in the 21st century involves a dynamic interplay between cultural identity, personal belief, and religious practice. While physical markers and cultural practices often define and express religious belief, they do not always fully capture the depth of personal spirituality. Understanding religious identity requires acknowledging both the significance of external practices and the importance of internal conviction. As societies and individuals navigate the evolving landscape of religion, it becomes essential to recognize the multifaceted nature of faith and its expressions.

FlaggyShore · 07/09/2024 13:33

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:16

It absolutely is. Cultural Christianity has nothing to do with belief.

Then it should be re-named @FlaggyShore because it isn't Christianity.

What do you mean?

What's the point of getting baptised and confirmed or going to Mass and celebrating religious days etc. if you have no belief in the God they are centred around?

You seem a bit confused, @Patentlyuntrue — Catholics are baptised as babies, make their first communion at the age of seven or eight, and their confirmation at eleven or twelve. None of those things were my decision. My parents were and are devout Catholics, so those were their decisions, as was my education and mass going in childhood.

I don’t do any of that in adulthood, obviously. I grew out of religion as a young adult when it became very clear how human a construct it was, compounded of wishful thinking and fear of death. DH and I married in a civil ceremony. My son wasn’t baptised/confirmed, and attends secular schools. I attend church weddings/funerals, because those are about other people’s identification/beliefs.

But despite my atheism, I’m obviously still a cultural Catholic, a subset of cultural Christianity, because it was the belief system in which I grew up. I’m well-versed in the Bible, very familiar with Catholic and different stripes of C of E ritual and belief, remember all the hymns and prayers etc. I’m knowledgeable about church music from my Oxford days. If you dropped me into a Mass or Evensong or a confession box right now, I would know exactly what to do and say. I could lead the saying of the rosary in a church, do the readings, administer holy communion. It’s a culture I’m thoroughly familiar with. I just don’t believe in the deity that inspired it.

KnittedCardi · 07/09/2024 13:33

I am a Christian. My parents were CofE, and Catholic. I was baptised because that's what you did, even though my Catholic mother didn't believe, or have faith. She was a Catholic because she was Italian, and everyone was Catholic.

My kids are not baptised, and no-one in this family has faith, or believes in a god. But I would still describe us as Christian because it is our cultural heritage.

My kids went to a Catholic school, and even the school didn't manage to change their fundamental lack of faith.

BerthaFlapjack · 07/09/2024 13:36

I suspect that for many people, going to church (or similar) is much like many other activities or hobbies. It is human to want to be part of a community.

You can connect with people, make friends, get involved in organising stuff. As one rather elderly person put it, "I go to church because I am too old for the cricket team."

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:38

You want factual reality?* *@Beforetheend How about the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 300 biblical prophecies (29 in just one day).

Most of these prophecies were written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on earth (though He existed before then).

The probability that one man could have fulfilled just 8 such prophecies is
1 in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000!

I don't need this evidence, but it is further proof that what I believe in is the truth.

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:40

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:28

PP said, a lot people were fairly cynical / disinterested in the woo woo stuff. @theduchessofspork

I maintain, you can't be a Christian without faith in Jesus and naturally, by extension, God.

I’m not saying you can..

I am saying that in centuries past the majority of people weren’t terribly interested in it anymore than people are now. it was a bigger part of the backdrop of their lives, and it helped explain the world, but the same as now people mostly focused on their families and putting food on the table - the value of religion was mostly in a sense of community and identity - they weren’t overly interested in the supernatural, and they certainly weren’t blind to the hypocrisies of the church.

Echobelly · 07/09/2024 13:41

Quite often, yes.

I'm Jewish, member of a large congregation and I'd say few people in it actually believe in God. To me, and many other Jews, Judaism is a cultural and spiritual tradition and cultural identity, it's not a 'faith'.

SugarHorseSpooks · 07/09/2024 13:44

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:38

You want factual reality?* *@Beforetheend How about the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 300 biblical prophecies (29 in just one day).

Most of these prophecies were written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on earth (though He existed before then).

The probability that one man could have fulfilled just 8 such prophecies is
1 in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000!

I don't need this evidence, but it is further proof that what I believe in is the truth.

The claim that Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies, including 29 in one day, is a significant assertion in Christian theology, but its verification depends on the interpretation of biblical texts and historical context.

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:46

I would still describe us as Christian says KnittedCardi @theduchessofspork and I would argue that is the wrong word to use and makes a mockery of real Christians' faith.

theduchessofspork · 07/09/2024 13:46

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:38

You want factual reality?* *@Beforetheend How about the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 300 biblical prophecies (29 in just one day).

Most of these prophecies were written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on earth (though He existed before then).

The probability that one man could have fulfilled just 8 such prophecies is
1 in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000!

I don't need this evidence, but it is further proof that what I believe in is the truth.

You’re misunderstanding the conversation everyone else is having. The OP asked what role people think religion has in the West. The answer is it’s mostly cultural - but it always has been really, although of course it played a bigger part of life in the past than it does now.

Very religious people, as you are, have always been outliers.

No one is questioning your right to believe or that being fully Christian involves a faith in god - although of course it does not necessitate a literal belief in what the bible says for many people.

Sleepersausage · 07/09/2024 13:50

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 10:55

@Sandyankles Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'culturally Christian' though. Being a Christian means to have a relationship with and follow Jesus - believing in and loving Him with your whole heart and as a result, keeping His commands. The early followers of Jesus didn't call it Christianity, it was known as The Way. Jesus called out the religious leaders at that time for being prideful of what they perceived as their righteousness, when in fact they were 'spiritually dead' -

www.gotquestions.org/seven-woes.html

Going to church, praying, doing charitable works, reading the Bible etc. doesn't make someone a Christian. All these things are fruitless if that person doesn't love God.

Doing charitable work is not fruitless, no matter whose name you do it under.

FlaggyShore · 07/09/2024 13:51

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:38

You want factual reality?* *@Beforetheend How about the fact that Jesus fulfilled over 300 biblical prophecies (29 in just one day).

Most of these prophecies were written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on earth (though He existed before then).

The probability that one man could have fulfilled just 8 such prophecies is
1 in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000!

I don't need this evidence, but it is further proof that what I believe in is the truth.

Respectfully, this is just silly, @Patentlyuntrue. Accounts of the life and work of Jesus were specifically written to provide early Christians with a figurehead that fulfilled Old Testament prophecies! To treat writings by Christians as factual reasons to believe in the divinity of Jesus is like treating Vogue Williams tv ads as a factual reason for buying whichever laundry detergent she’s selling.

It seems likely there was a historical Jesus, a charismatic preacher who got up the authorities’ noses and was executed for it, but that’s the only ‘fact’ we have, other than that this new religion spread quickly.

Patentlyuntrue · 07/09/2024 13:52

its verification depends on the interpretation of biblical texts and historical context.

Look into it yourself @SugarHorseSpooks. You'd have to be blind not to see these texts are about Jesus and His crucifixion. Take Zechariah 11 vs 12 for example -

www.gotquestions.org/Zechariah-11-12-13-Messianic.html