Are religions in the 21st century more about cultural identity than a fundamental belief in supernatural beings and divine intervention?

[mids2019]

85% of people in the world believe in a religion. but in the western world at least there are few in my opinion that would attest to an understanding of a supernatural God or ihave an absolute belief in the possibility of miracles which defy well known physical.laws.

Is modern religion more a mean a of expressing cultural identity and a way of establishing common rules for living based on a religious moral code. Religion seems to be used as means of establishing a tribe with due regard to ancestry of that religious tribe that sets out an identity and a persons place in the world.

For instance I was talking to a Muslim woman and though she was devout in the sense of wearing hijab and following an Islamic code of conduct she gave little thought to nature of Allah/God, the existence of supernatural brings such as angels or the possibility of miracles. The woman thought such existential thoughts were not necessary in her day to day life and she has an absolute understanding of natural science (being in a medical field)

Are the major religions now more about tribal identity than a full belief in something greater than the physical world?

And I have just recited both the ‘Hail, Holy Queen’ and the ‘Memorare’ aloud from memory, despite the fact that it must be forty years since I said either. DS is looking oddly at me…😀

You can't report people just because they disagree with you.

I didn't @KnittedCardi. It was an insulting personal attack. MNHQ obviously agreed, since they deleted it.

You seem under-informed, and terribly black and white in your thinking.

And you seem blinded by deceit @FlaggyShore. I am well aware the early Christian church considered themselves a Jewish sect.

Apart from being not very Christian - charity being Christianity in action - if you dismiss other people’s belief systems, they will not listen to you.

I didn't say Christians shouldn't be charitable, I said it doesn't make someone a Christian. @theduchessofspork

www.gotquestions.org/cultural-Christianity.html

biblearchaeologyreport.com/2022/11/18/top-ten-historical-references-to-jesus-outside-of-the-bible/

I think there are definitely people that would say they belong to a certain faith on the census with varying degrees of belief. There are various surveys like this one about belief in the resurrection 25% of Christians don't believe in...

Not spending much time contemplating the nature of the Divine or possibilities of miracles or divine messengers is not a great deterring factor of whether someone is devoted in their faith. Some people get into that type of philosophical aspects of a faith system, some don't, neither is more devoted, they just experience it differently.

Religion originally referred to a code of behaviour to others, including god(s) That's why there used to be secular and religious priests - the latter had taken specific monastic vows to act a certain way developed from a particular culture. Religion to mean a belief in the supernatural comes from post-Reformation cultural shift as early Protestants wanted to distance and some wanted place themselves above Catholics (and to a far lesser extent Orthodox Christians) by putting internal beliefs and perceptions as more devoted and spiritual than the external displays and rituals.

Then we had some European Protestant groups getting a bit obsessed with putting everything in a box and treated every cultural system that included divine or non-material faith as a religion and try to make it fit their version of a Christian box. It doesn't work well even within Christianity (Quakers, for example, haven't required a belief in the Divine for decades and renew their Book of Faith and Practice regularly, they're still considered a Christian group as that's their cultural base alongside those that will only use the KJV) and works even less well outside of it - our earliest texts and sects that we would now call agnostic or atheist come from Hinduism and many cultures have codes of practice around what some would call ancestor worship that is more a code for treatment and discussion of the dead than a faith system with many doing rituals for the dead with none of the nonmaterial concepts often associated with it.

While it is more common in last few decades, religions cannot be meaningfully pulled out of the culture in is within and culture cannot be fully discussed without including the codes, philosophies, and faith systems that are developed and practiced within it and these all form part of our sense of self.

I wouldn't call it tribal or even connected to ancestry automatically - the latter ignores conversions entirely and erases that any faith group in different parts of the UK will be different from each other and from those in other parts of the world. They aren't homogenous - you can have a hundred people in a mosque and more than a hundred different perceptions and they all change over space and time. There may be an orthodoxy of the perceptions that are expected, but that doesn't mean it is universal. Some will create an identity from it, particularly against antagonistic outsiders, but I don't think modern religions do it any more than they did in the last several centuries or that religion specifically is a potential identity marker in that way compared to other cultural concepts people do that with.

Great post. I'm not Catholic, but used to live in Ireland and agree that cultural Christianity is sadly widespread there.

I think I'm more a cultural Pagan than Christian. Outside of Christianity being forced on me as a child by a parent and the school system, I only really kept the Pagan holiday traditions. Easter eggs, bunnies and lambs. A decorated tree, gift-giving, holly, mistletoe, stockings. And I'm of northern European heritage so sometimes burn stuff at Midsummer. I've also been to more Pagan weddings than Christian.

I accept I might be in a minority but I have noticed that a lot of Christians like to claim Pagan traditions as their own so may not know that they are cultural Pagans!

That’s funny. Earlier today, you seemed totally unfamiliar with the term ‘cultural Christianity’, and when it was impressed upon you that this was a widespread term, you then tried to quibble that unless people met your own personal definition of Christianity they couldn’t use the term ‘Christian’. Suddenly now you’re all sad because of Irish cultural Catholicism being widespread.

And @Blubbled, while I share your annoyance at aspects of cultural Catholicism, in my case it’s because ‘bouncy castle Catholicism is slowing down the eradication of the dead hand of lingering church control over education (and to a lesser extent on healthcare).

Anyone who is wringing their hands about the demise of Irish Catholicism should really read a history book about power vacuums in the wake of independence, the Ryan Report, the Scoping Report, maybe watch the recent Eamonn Casey documentary.

The sooner Irish Catholicism is a faint bad memory, some survivors of institutional abuse who have been unreservedly apologised to, listened to, and financially compensated, and given access to the information they need, and a few Father Ted jokes, the better.

To me being a cultural Christian means that my ancestors were Christian. My grandparents certainly had a strong faith and my parents to a lesser extent, although I’m not sure they still do. I grew up attending church and learning bible stories at school - nativity plays etc. I can’t ever remember believing it though, it seemed obvious to me that the idea of God was created by man as an answer to the mysteries of creation and as a way of controlling people. I had some awkward conversations with the vicar about confirmation classes (I didn’t take up his offer!). The art, music and literature I’ve been exposed to is profoundly influenced by Christianity. I’m a historian so the history of the church is in pretty much everything I read. I love visiting cathedral and churches for their history and beauty. I like going to church as a nice community thing to do, everyone else is over 80 and they like having someone to do the coffees! I’ve never been to a wedding or funeral that wasn’t cofe or catholic. So, in summary, I’m thoroughly drenched in Christianity but I don’t believe in God. There are loads of people like this!!

That’s funny. Earlier today, you seemed totally unfamiliar with the term ‘cultural Christianity’

No @FlaggyShore I have repeatedly been pointing out what an oxymoron it is! If you're not a Christian in the true sense, don't try to use the label. Simple.

What's a Christian in the "true" sense? Anglican? Baptist? Roman Catholic? Evangelical? Eastern Orthodox? Jehovah's Witness? Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

I have repeatedly been pointing out what an oxymoron it is! If you're not a Christian in the true sense, don't try to use the label. Simple.

@Patentlyuntrue I don’t understand why you think you can gatekeep language in this way. You can’t control how people identify - lots of people on this thread have clearly explained why they see themselves as a cultural Christian or cultural Jew etc. It’s not up to you to tell them they’re not.

I think there are a lot of cultural Christians. Christianity for historical reasons is embedded within our culture and it is quite hard to escape. A good example of cultural Christianity is our national anthem and national insignia emblazoned with crosses.

People from a Christian heritage who don't necessarily believe still want the identity and possibly invite faith at times like weddings and funerals even if it is to pay tribute to an ancestral faith. Of course there is a darker side where Christianity is used as a proxy for white British and we saw this during the recent riots where Justin Selby had to distance himself from some comments.

Crucifixes are still a popular jewelry item and also feature in a lot of tattoos I have seen.

If someone wants to be a Christian as part of their identity without a full hearted belief that is an interesting deabate. I am sure you have cultural Muslims for example where Islam is part of a personal identity but possibly coupled with doubts about the supernatural. It seems religion can be a moral code and social organisation as well as a purely a belief in the divine.

I see where you're coming from.

I think there's a lot of people in the UK who were vaguely raised Christian, sung Christian hymns at school, could possibly name three or four of the Ten Commandments, know the names of five or six of the apostles, and know that Jesus was born at Christmas and was crucified at Easter. Somewhere in there is the Devil and angels and Santa Claus and Pilate but the exact details are unclear. They want to be married in church and get their children baptised but the only other times they go to church is for Christmas carols and funerals.

I don't see them as having particularly strong faiths, it's just there in the background like knowing a few facts about Henry VIII and Nelson.

"written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived"

And that means he knew about them along with everyone else.

Like the prophecy that the messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.

If you actually read the bible just before they reached Jerusalem Jesus says "I'll wait here while you go fetch a donkey so the prophecy will be fulfilled and they'll know I'm the messiah.

That was an easy one wasn't it. I could have done that.

A lot of them are like that or they are are so vague you could wave a tulip in the air and paint your nose blue and then say "see that verse! Right there! that's what it meant"

If there really was proof that he fulfilled even one prophecy every Christian church would have it 10 feet high on a sign outside and every other religion in the world would have been proven false and they'd have all closed down.

What's a Christian in the "true" sense?

@HowardTJMoon www.gotquestions.org/true-Christian.html

lots of people on this thread have clearly explained why they see themselves as a cultural Christian or cultural Jew etc. It’s not up to you to tell them they’re not.

It very much is up to me @Kneidlach and all Christians to spread the truth of the gospel, even if that means people hate us -

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
John 15 vs 18-19

It seems religion can be a moral code and social organisation as well as a purely a belief in the divine.

It can be @mids2019 but only one way leads to life.

You're playing fast and loose with that Bible quote @LastTrainEast and the prophecy with the donkey was just one out of 300 plus. I wonder if you know any more....

If there really was proof that he fulfilled even one prophecy every Christian church would have it 10 feet high on a sign outside and every other religion in the world would have been proven false and they'd have all closed down.

I think that's pretty naive; people will always argue and debate things, no matter how strong the evidence is. In fact this thread is discussing the idea of cultural Christianity; I'm sure you can see how that applies equally to every religion that gets passed down from one generation to the next.

And if you read any Christian theology there's a huge amount on Old Testament prophecy. It's all over the New Testament and it is taught, and has been since the start of Christianity but obviously you need to have an interest in finding out as well. Do people put a lot of stock in billboard messages on churches? It's not a bad idea I suppose.

I won’t attempt to speak about any belief system other than my own.
I am a Christian.
I became a Christian at the age of 22.

There are people from every nationality and cultural identity who claim Christ as their Saviour and Lord - people who have, at some point in their lives, made a conscious and personal decision to receive Him as Lord and Saviour.

“He came to that which was his own, but His own did not receive Him. Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”
John 1:11-13

There are also people who consider themselves to belong to Christ through some sort of cultural, familial or national connection but who have never experienced the new birth which Jesus said was essential in His conversation with Nicodemus.

”Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ “
John 3: 5-7

I suspect that though there are millions of the former, and I am one of them, there are probably many more of the latter world wide.

The whole point of Christ’s ministry was that He would bring people into relationship with the Father.

I’ve not encountered any theme of God being “unknowable” in my 42 years as a Christian (since my conversion to Christ at the age of 22).

Knowing God and being known by Him, ie being in relationship with Him is the essence of Biblical Christianity.

“NI is another obvious example. I’m atheist, but if I had been killed during the Troubles, I’d have been reported as a Catholic on ethnic grounds.

I’m from NI and one of the areas I lived in during the Troubles was on a peace line. My Christian faith was well known in the community but my background was a bit of a puzzle to many. It was reported to me that the question had been asked
“Was “agilegreenseal” a Protestant or a Catholic before she became a Christian?” Apparently this mattered to some in the community who wouldn’t have been comfortable if I had been from the other “tribe”.

Yes, Protestant and Catholic were (and are) seen as tribal identities but Christian, as in someone who had been “born again” was also recognised as a separate kind of descriptor of “non-cultural” Christianity, which transcends either “tribe”.

In other words my “ethnic” or “tribal” identity would be Protestant or Catholic but my spiritual identity was recognised as something more connected to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then you're not actually a Christian. A Christian is someone who believes in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation from sins.

What the OP has said isn't true from my experience. I attend a large church frequented mainly by students and young professionals who fervently believe in the truth of the Bible. My next door neighbours are a Muslim family who teach the Qu'ran to children in their spare time, so they clearly believe in its truth and relevance.

Then you're not actually a Christian. A Christian is someone who believes in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for salvation from sins.

What the OP has said isn't true from my experience. I attend a large church frequented mainly by students and young professionals who fervently believe in the truth of the Bible. My next door neighbours are a Muslim family who teach the Qu'ran to children in their spare time, so they clearly believe in its truth and relevance.

It's a fundamental teaching in Christianity that doing good deeds will not save you.

Ephesians 2:8-10. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

— about How God speaks personally to me- He, the Holy Spirit, speaks to me in my spirit- and that is the part of me that hears Him. Over the years He has said various things to me, often very personal, sometimes directional, the latest being a command to move to another town.

In addition the Holy Spirit also speaks to me through the Bible, by drawing my attention to a particular passage, or phrase.

@AgileGreenSeal

that is fascinating and illlus trates perfectly the divide between religion as a tribe and religion as a faith. I have never quite understood sectarianism in Christianity though obviously have seen its effrects.

I think the large evangelicals city churches are probably largely attended by believers.

Rural parish churches such as I attend (like in villages across the country) are much more about the local community and I suspect a higher percentage of people attend who don’t actually believe in a god but are cultural Christians. I have observed that more evangelical types tend to travel to a specific large town church that they consider to be ‘their’ church, whereas others would automatically go to the parish church of wherever they live.

To me the idea of travelling to a different, out of parish church, is odd because if you have faith it should hold anywhere - they are all the same prayers etc. It suggests to me that some people really value being part of a particular religious ‘club’, and it does indeed become a core part of their cultural identity. They choose a particular church (IME often a large city church) because they like the culture- the music, the people (most importantly) the tone of the sermons etc. They will express this by saying that they feel ‘at home’ there or they ‘feel closer to god’ or ‘they are so welcoming’. This Church may become their main social network.

City churches are thriving but rural churches are in huge decline.