Are religions in the 21st century more about cultural identity than a fundamental belief in supernatural beings and divine intervention?

[mids2019]

85% of people in the world believe in a religion. but in the western world at least there are few in my opinion that would attest to an understanding of a supernatural God or ihave an absolute belief in the possibility of miracles which defy well known physical.laws.

Is modern religion more a mean a of expressing cultural identity and a way of establishing common rules for living based on a religious moral code. Religion seems to be used as means of establishing a tribe with due regard to ancestry of that religious tribe that sets out an identity and a persons place in the world.

For instance I was talking to a Muslim woman and though she was devout in the sense of wearing hijab and following an Islamic code of conduct she gave little thought to nature of Allah/God, the existence of supernatural brings such as angels or the possibility of miracles. The woman thought such existential thoughts were not necessary in her day to day life and she has an absolute understanding of natural science (being in a medical field)

Are the major religions now more about tribal identity than a full belief in something greater than the physical world?

Well, they’ve always been for some peoole in some contexts. I know a fair few Jewish people whose Jewishness is a primarily less a belief than a matter of post-Holocaust tribal identification. NI is another obvious example. I’m atheist, but if I had been killed during the Troubles, I’d have been reported as a Catholic on ethnic grounds.

Yes, I think so. I find it very hard to believe that so many people still believe in the supernatural.
I’m a Christian in the sense that i sometimes go to church, celebrate Christmas, weddings etc - as do most people I know. Very few actually have a faith though or believe that there is a god.

I think many human beings do strive for some spiritual meaning beyond the physical and everyday world. But the curtain has pretty much fallen away from many established religions, what with huge child abuse scandals in both the Catholic and Anglican churches.

Religion was also used for social control for centuries, with power, information and education centred in religious hands. But developed countries now have well-established secular systems of law, government, education and policing, so that’s no longer important.

The danger comes from the newer charismatic branches of faith, such as evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity. These groups are growing and very skilled at gathering followers, funds and power. Some would also actively like to influence secular society - see the Seven Mountains Mandate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Mountain_Mandate

I'm sorry? You think very few Christians have a faith or belief in God?

I wouldn’t call you a Christian then - isn’t belief in God part of being in that club? I am not one but that would be my expectation of the meaning of the term!

Exactly!

Er, yes. I find it really hard to believe that people have faith, it’s like believing in the tooth fairy to me, sorry if that sounds rude but you did ask. I would obviously not say this to someone in person. In my large extended family we all sometimes go to church so we are nominally/ culturally Christian but none of us believe there is a god. My ‘very few’ referred to the people I know, not all Christian’s (I haven’t sampled them!) sorry if that was unclear. I have also encountered vicars who are wonderful people and served their communities amazingly but I’m not at all sure they actually still believed in God.

I call myself a ‘cultural Christian’. I would never say I was a Christian, but people who know me a bit might assume I was, until we had a discussion!

I think it's both. I know many Muslims and they absolutely believe in Allah. This is the main thing for them but the cultural and community aspects are also very important.
My DH calls himself a Hindu but openly admits he's an atheist! He's culturally a Hindu. The rest of his family very much believe in the Hindu Gods.

@Sandyankles Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'culturally Christian' though. Being a Christian means to have a relationship with and follow Jesus - believing in and loving Him with your whole heart and as a result, keeping His commands. The early followers of Jesus didn't call it Christianity, it was known as The Way. Jesus called out the religious leaders at that time for being prideful of what they perceived as their righteousness, when in fact they were 'spiritually dead' -

www.gotquestions.org/seven-woes.html

Going to church, praying, doing charitable works, reading the Bible etc. doesn't make someone a Christian. All these things are fruitless if that person doesn't love God.

I suspect if you went back a few centuries and asked the average Christian in England some questions about the nature of God they'd struggle to answer.

For every Thomas Aquinas there's got to be a million people who just went to church, listened to the sermons, and didn't really put that much thought into the philosophical implications. Not least because there's a heavy theme in the Abrahamic religions that God is fundamentally unknowable and that difficult questions are frowned upon (Isiah 4:9-10, for instance).

Isaiah 4 only has 6 verses @HowardTJMoon ?

Apologies, I mistyped. Isiah 45:9-10, where God is talking to Cyrus -

Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'The potter has no hands'?
Woe to the one who says to a father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to a mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
24 “Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.
25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
shall be justified and shall glory.”

If you look at the last few verses @HowardTJMoon God is declaring He is the one and only true God, who everyone on earth is accountable to. The Babylonians were a pagan nation who worshipped false idols.
This passage was a prophecy written by Isaiah predicting that King Cyrus would secure the release of the Jews from their captivity in Babylon, almost 200 years in advance.

I think from a philosophical perspective it is impossible to prove it disprove the existence of God (or the afterlife) so in a manifest way we are reliant on what we see a person do or say.

It is impossible to judge the profundity of belief simply thought declaration of faith and I wonder how many Muslims for instance state their devotion to Allah as it would be culturally and socially disastrous to state otherwise?

It is an interesting point about whether Jews are a race or a group practising a religion. The answer is race as I very much doubt Nazis were asking a great deal of questions about synagogue attendance...lack of belief certainly didn't matter to the third Reich.

So should we now start to look at religions akin to race in a lot of respects as cultural dividers?

@Patentlyuntrue um, ok? Does that mean that when I've had Christians cite Isiah 45:9-10 to me as a reason why I shouldn't ask difficult questions, they were misquoting the Bible?

What an interesting question. I don't know is my answer. I have a Muslim friend and he truly believes in God/Allah. I have other Muslim friends who to my mind are more cultural in their approach - I think.

I have a couple of Jewish friends and one I think is very spiritual and the other an atheist.

I have a few Christian friends and I think they all believe in a spiritual being.

I have atheist friends and we all believe we are living in an augmented reality - well kinda but not really but then again...

Not necessarily, I was just trying to give you the bigger picture. Questioning God is not a sin. To err is human. Even Jesus questioned God!

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matt.27 vs 46

Do you believe in god? I find it hard to believe there are many church attending, Christian atheists in the UK.

Sorry, should have read on. You're a church attending atheist, not a Christian. Still think you and your little group must be pretty rare!

As a Christian, I can attest that every Christian I know does actually believe in God in a literal way. Definitely not a cultural identity. But maybe there are some in CofE/ Catholic traditions especially where it's more of a cultural or traditional thing?

I find this fascinating. I would say I am agnostic. I find the whole concept of the universe and our existence baffling and couldn't rule out any ideas. To me someone telling me that galaxies exist or that God exists is the same thing...a theory that I can't prove or disprove. I celebrate Christian festivals because I have grown up with them and love the coming together element and the opportunity to connect with people. I respect a lot of the values of Christianity and like the idea of being part of a community with shared values and lots of kindness. However, from a very early age I have been totally baffled by people saying that God has spoken to them, I can remember sitting in church as a child and thinking 'I can't hear anything can other people hear a voice?'. When people say God has shown them the way I feel like they are just attributing a meaning to something that was pure chance or a 50/50 decision, in the same way I view physics. I'm obviously think about it far to literally but that aspect of religion makes me very uncomfortable and also when in church (worse in Catholic ceremonies) when they start talking about sin and babies going to hell if they haven't been baptised. I certainly don't believe in heaven and he'll. I do wonder how many people truly believe....and maybe some of you can tell me how God speaks to you?

Can you believe in Allah (or God) in a spiritual sense i.e. profoundly believe in divine existence yet not show any outward signs of mortal belief i.e. not attend a mosque, no prayers and not follow religous doctrine and be considered Muslim?

Therefore aren't physical markers and cultural practice what defines belief in practice?

I can’t believe you haven’t come across the widely-used term ‘cultural Christian’. It has zero to do with belief. You might also believe in God, but it’s perfectly possible to be culturally Christian and atheist or agnostic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Christians

babies going to hell if they haven't been baptised.

Total codswallop @WonderingWanda

maybe some of you can tell me how God speaks to you?

It is not as an audible voice (though extremely rarely it could be). God speaks to me in many ways - through the Holy Spirit, scripture, His creation, other people, my conscience and dreams.

I wanted Sandyankles' take on it @FlaggyShore and like others have said, Christian + atheist/agnostic is not possible.

But you’re using a much more exclusive definition of Christianity. If you put a hundred white British people in a room the vast majority would be probably be culturally Christian (C of E/Church in Wales etc, Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, Baptist, Quaker etc, in the sense of having been baptised, and occasional churchgoing, if only weddings and funerals, general familiarity with the tenets of Christianity, possibly with parents/grandparents who were regular churchgoers.

They may also have a strong personal belief in God, but that’s not required for cultural Christianity.

I’m a cultural Catholic in the sense that I was baptised, confirmed, went to Mass weekly until my mid-teens, educated at Catholic schools, devout parents, thoroughly familiar with Catholic liturgy, beliefs, prayers, rituals, feast days, the colours of vestments for the different parts of the year. I’m also an atheist.