Any Jews around, a genuine question

[DreamBream234]

Im a Christian, and Im curious about Judaism.

Jews believe they are the chosen people and they dont encourage converts...so why were the rest of us created....what do Jews believe will happen to the goys (non Jews).

Christians, Muslims and other faiths preach their faith so that others may be "saved" why isnt this the case for Judaism....

Well if it's ok for heathens to comment here.... No religion makes 100% actual logical sense does it. So it's a pretty pointless discussion. Imo.

Cremebrulee what a stupid answer.
Shes clearly asking what Jewish doctrine on this matter is.

It’s about your favourite imaginary friend, usually male, making up the rules to get you to stay in his club. All the other clubs are rubbish and his is the best.
Pick your club , don’t question the rules. Debate them of course with great seriousness especially if you’ve made a career of it, but never let it slip that it’s all imaginary.

Maybe ask for this to be moved into the philosophy religion board?

A Jewish friend of mine who has studied theology as a post-grad told me that (prior to the establishment of Christianity at least), most Jews didn't believe in life after death, so nothing particularly 'happened' to non-Jews after death. Obeying the laws was about living a good life.

@NanFlanders oh thats interesting. Thank you for that.

I’m not Jewish (well my family were generations ago but that doesn’t count) but I hope this helps. And takes some emotional labour off someone.

In Judaism it doesn’t matter as there is no concept of “salvation”. They believe God expects non-Jews to lead a good life which usually means following the Noahide rules/laws.

This article explains it quite well

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/what-does-traditional-judaism-teach-about-non-jews-564527

There are some really good social media accounts that are very informative. Moses and Zippora is a great one and Jennmysterion on instagram. But remember that for many things there won’t necessarily be an agreement between every rabbi or denomination!

@DreamBream234 the term "goy" is actually pejorative and gentile is the usual terminology.

That's not what the 'chosen people' means. It's in respect of being chosen for the Covenant with God. Judaism does not have the Christian idea that 'everyone who doesn't believe X goes to hell and suffers for eternity'.

I've always wondered about Jehovas Witnesses. If they believe that only a limited number of people will enter paradise, why are they always trying to convert people? Surely it will just lessen their own chances?

Jew here, I think you're misunderstanding. Conversion isn't encouraged because it's not a belief system that believes the only way is to be Jewish. Well, some more fundamentalist sects would believe that's the case, they believe they're better than everyone, even other Jews of different sects, but that's the same for any sort of extremist religious view. The 'chosen people' belief comes from what would more widely be considered to be the Old Testament (what Jews would call the Torah), so it's something that Christians and Muslims believe as well.

As for conversion, converts aren't 'sought out' because that just isn't the way. Unlike in Islam and Christianity, there is no virtue in bringing people into the fold (as in you aren't a better Jew for getting more Jews, where as Christians who bring people into Christianity are more seen as 'doing a good thing' or helping them be 'saved'). Though Jews are welcoming to people who want to become a Jew.

I'm a convert. The tradition is to turn away converts three times, so they actually have time to think about what it is that they want to do. It isn't about being 'saved'. There is no greater virtue in becoming a Jew than staying whatever it was you were before. But there is a lot of burden that comes with it potentially, and it's just the way it's done, to almost weed out those who aren't seriously committed. And it's a long process to convert, I had to take a year long course, 3 hours a week, do lots of homework, lots of meetings with and counselling by a rabbi, a bit like premarital counselling, and then even before the actual conversion, they ask you again to make sure you really understand what you're doing. It's meant to be a very educated and intentional choice, not one taken lightly or flippantly.

The other thing about Judaism is that there isn't like one set of Jewish beliefs, generally speaking. Probably a bit like Christianity. I have some very outspoken gay Christian friends and I have some very 'You will go to hell for being gay' Christian 'acquaintances' (I wouldn't call them friends). Both believe that their religion supports their attitude towards gay people in the Christian church, even though they have very opposing views. Judaism is very much the same.

Jew here. Jews beleive that they have to do all the work. Humanity has a relationship with God because of the sacrifice of Jews. Non Jews are not required to do anything.

Then Christians beleive that Jesus took that responsibility onto himself, so Jews who beleive in Jesus no longer have to follow the law

All that being said above, I can answer your question from my belief system as a liberal Jew. How this idea of being 'the chosen people' was taught to me was that it means that if you're Jewish, you have to follow more rules and do more work to be favoured by God. So everyone else only has to follow like the 10 commandments, basically just don't be a shit person, but Jews have more rules (I think it's like 214?) and they have to do more to live in the best way possible. It's sort of like 'chosen' to be a moral example to the world, not like 'chosen' you're the only ones not going to hell. Judaism doesn't really have a strong conception of hell anyway, so can't really be compared to Christian philosophy in that way.

It's about how you live and who you are, not the numbers you recruit - G-d doesn't operate a bonus points scheme.

Even if there were a Holy Loyalty Points for Extra Followers Scheme, the countless people who were forced at sword/gunpoint, had their cultures erased, their children stolen, their names added to a list long after their death (as per LDS) or needed to remain as inconspicuous as possible so stopped observing at least in public, if not altogether, really, really wouldn't count, would they?

This is very interesting, thank you for posting, everyone. Would it be correct to say that Jews consider being Jewish as a responsibility, even a burden, as much as a privilege? I’m not religious, but it’s very thought-provoking that this is kind of borne out (vindicated?) by the way Jews have been treated by other groups throughout history. I don’t mean that antisemitism is vindicated, I mean that Jews might feel vindicated in feeling that being persecuted is part of that burden. I hope that isn’t an offensive thing to say, it truly wasn’t intended to be.

In Judaism it’s considered effectively a burden to be Jewish as you have to obey the 613 Mitzvot(commandments). Non Jews don’t have to- they just need to obey 7 Noahide laws. So it’s not considered necessary to convert people and they should be dissuaded to ensure they are serious. we don’t think it’s necessary to be Jewish to go to heaven or any such thing.

Mindutopia, in those 214 rules how are the 10 commandments ranked? Brought up as a Catholic we have Venial sin and Mortal sins with the 10 being the big rules not to break. Are your rules vastly different than that?

Not really- the burden is the mitzvot (the commandments- sometimes kids at bar mitzvah age and converts are said to be taking on the yoke of the mitzvot). The mitzvot are commandments like dietary laws etc, that are in the Torah.

Aren't Jews who believe in Jesus Christians? Like the first Christians? I know there is an organisation called ' Jews for Jesus' but my DH ( who is a very secular Jew) says they aren't Jewish and are anti semitic Christsn evangelists. I don't know if he's correct about that.

There are 613 commandments not 214. They are listed here.

https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Judaism is an incredibly complicated religion but yes some commandments are considered more important than others. But generally it’s a much less prescriptive belief system than something like Catholicism. Different people believe differently re things like after life. No one keeps all the mitzvot all the time, or few do.

I’ve reported the disingenuous poster with the stupid name.

Jews believe in self defence. The interpretation of each mitzvah is very complex and it’s not really for you to use for antisemitic purposes.

There are 613 commandments for Jews, and 7 for everyone else. "Chosen" does not mean that we are better, only that we have additional responsibilities. We cannot carry out all 613 commandments (mitzvot) - some are for men/women only, some are for particular professions, some are only relevant when there is a Temple...

Practising Judaism is for us, you don't need to do it. There are non-Jews and that's fine.

Some useful info, keeping in mind the huge range of Jewish opinion: https://www.jewfaq.org/attitudes_toward_gentiles

13. To love your neighbor as yourself. (Leviticus 19:18) How is that open to interpretation? I ask theologically how when the rules are quite clear in the Bible, the Torah and the Qur'an such as Thou Shall not kill that ALL religions then claim it's down to interpretation?