Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

Equally, AI is just a tool. It takes imagination to use it effectively, to know how to direct it.

Oh I wasn’t discounting the need for imagination in science “everything now proved was once only imagined (Blake). But it was more the nuance of words in the liberal arts and whether this might be off putting to those whose first language isn’t that in which the nuance is expressed (thinking specifically about some of the questionable translations).

As someone who has studied English Lit what do you think?

As someone who has studied English Lit what do you think?

@Kdtym10, funny I was thinking about this subject earlier. I don't think discipline necessarily stifles creativity or the need for an appreciation of creativity.

So regarding interpretation, although the language of science is disciplined and precise, what is being discovered and described is infinitely complex so nuance needs to be appreciated albeit in a different way. Instead of the nuance in language you are interpreting the nuance within the natural world/universe. An interesting emergent area of study is Biosemiotics, where the signs and codes within living processes is regarded and studied as language.

But it was more the nuance of words in the liberal arts and whether this might be off putting to those whose first language isn’t that in which the nuance is expressed (thinking specifically about some of the questionable translations).

@Kdtym10, but indeed yes, if a language is not your first language you might prefer an area of study with language that feels more familiar to you.

However, when I was a student, I loved older texts, Chaucer (Middle English), for example. I felt there was more to say, comment on, because of the elusiveness of archaic language which requires more decoding...

Yes that’s a good point. But I guess that’s something that comes along later after you get fluent in the codes within your mother tongue. Certainly, it’s likely to be beyond an 8 year old!

I can remember studying “The Green Knight” at A-Level and it being hard work.

@Kdtym10, I think it's impossible to generalise. I often liked the texts that were 'hard work' because I felt there was more to say..although it wasn't always the case as I struggled with the translation of The Iliad I had bought at university and yet found my friend's more modern version easier to get to grips with. Yet I preferred Shakespeare and Webster to Thomas Hardy in terms of writing about the material. Maybe it was just something in the subject matter that interested me...I often experienced 'blocks' at the time with finding something to comment upon in texts. This was something which often frustrated and confounded me.

In terms of how a trilingual 8 year old might feel? I've never been one. I do know how much I hated people attempting to apply (derogatory) generalisations to my own child who surprised them all. All we know of the 8 year olds in question is that they were enthusiastic when they were learning (something) about evolution and big bang theory. I think it was a throwaway comment..but it struck me as impressive for 8. 🙂

But yes, I think if a person struggles with a language, the nuance in it might not be immediately very accessible.

I’m not sure it was “a throw away comment” at all😂

@Kdtym10

I’m not sure it was “a throw away comment” at all😂

I'd guessed as much.😉 But we won't really know unless @Parker231 comes back to elaborate on the motivations behind it.

Needless to say my own views are that people can surprise us and there is nothing wrong or embarrassing about having an interest in subjects we have a limited understanding of. And sometimes (even) a complete novice has something really interesting to contribute.

No, it wasn't. You've both been on excellent form though. 😅

@Mustardseed86😁 thanks!

In the absence of any contrary input I’m going to go with my gut instinct of “my oh so clever 8 year olds (who spoke 3 languages) were much more intelligent as they realised at that age the Big Bang was the way forward over all this religious stuff.”

😂

Thank you @heyhohello and @Kdtym10 for keeping the thread alive.

I think it's also important to have faith Christ will lead me. The parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins comes to mind. Being brutally honest I don't currently wholly understand all of the book of Revelation. But I know Christ does so aim to abide in Him and hopefully grow in understanding in the fullness of time.

I agree* *@heyhohello and like I said before, you don't need to understand all of it, just like we don't need to know whether Jesus was a Carpenter, Stonemason or handy man. Just keep your eyes and ears open, listen to the Holy Spirit, keep reading Jesus' words and you can't go far wrong.

Thing is, all of this 'end of days' stuff is incredibly human-centric. Even if we are stupid enough to blow up our world soon (and we might be) then something will survive and flourish in time. It just won't be us. No big deal. We aren't the summit of everything.

Without wishing to further depress anybody @pointythings the end of the world won’t be brought about by humans alone. The destruction described in the Bible will be even greater than that of an extinction level event (such as happened to the dinosaurs):
“* *But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.” (2 Peter 3:10).

Don't believe in Heaven or Hell. From dust to dust for me.

@fleurneige I’m guessing from that statement you don’t believe in the existence of the soul?

Another world war would more than likely be nuclear. No amount of religion would save anyone or anything. No one will go to heaven or hell - we’ll all end up as a pile of ash!

@Parker231 See above, this will be on a far larger scale. The physical would be turned to ash, but the spiritual cannot be destroyed in such a way.

In common with most doomsday prophecies, it has a way of tapping into our darkest fears, and I think it’s these we need to pay attention to, not whether Putin is the Antichrist or whether Elon Musk’s name adds up to 666 in Sanskrit or Hebrew or ancient Greek.

@BreakfastAtMilliways I really don’t think that’s the message John was trying to get across in Revelation. However, Elon Musk is a far better candidate for the Antichrist than Putin or Emperor Nero. The Bible reveals, whoever he is, this man is going to come up with some creative and innovative solutions to the world’s problems and bring about peace in the middle east (for a time). Then there's Neuralink...

@Kdtym10

Gematria aside, I’ve explained my thoughts about why Nero couldn’t possibly be the Antichrist and at this point, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

What is meant by “ye are gods”? Well precisely that

So, everyone is a god (little g) in their own right? Do you believe there is also a supreme being who created everything, a God (big G)?
I noticed upthread you said we should all aspire to become Christ, which I agreed with, but misread the subtle difference. I meant that we should aspire to be Christ like - the former is impossible.

what is meant by the kingdom of god is within you. The type of Jewish mysticism of which Paul was a likely initiate and therefore most likely influenced his disciple Luke involved a journey within youre self to find and see the Chariot Throne of Eziekiel fame. - it’s the journey of the imagination as later prophets would discuss.

Paul being a Jewish Mystic, how you see it, seems rather far-fetched. I’m not aware of any later prophets mentioning a ‘journey of imagination’, could you explain this further please?

Do you also believe in the concept of double presdestination?

No, I believe that Salvation is available to all.

Well we don’t normally see angels (although they make appearances through the bible), they are due to appear at the end of times with the breaking of the seals (also a concept from contemporary Jewish mysticism), where are they??

That’s what I meant by saying we can see angels occasionally, when God permits them to appear, but the events of Revelation (such as the blowing of trumpets) are happening in the spiritual realm, which we cannot normally perceive.

Well if we have something “far better than the written word” why bother with scripture?

Because Scripture, as @heyhohello explained upthread, is not just 'the written word'. Hebrews 4:12 says, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
Besides, Jesus said Himself, in John 14, that it was better to have the Holy Spirit on earth than His physical presence here:

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them...You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.”

And yes the early church had beliefs re reincarnation- what I’m saying about Mark is you can re read it, it ends with the message he will see the disciples in Galaliee, which he does if you re read the book.

Sorry, I still don't get it. The gospel of Mark ends with Jesus appearing to his disciples in Jerusalem, not Galilee, and His ascension into Heaven. Nothing at all pertaining to reincarnation.

was Jesus born? Well let’s look at the first time we meet Jesus - his immersion in water. If you look at Plato (and picked up later by the neo platonists). Being born into this word was connected with the concept of water, dew, rivers and fountains. And look where Mark starts, look at when God announces Jesus as his son. It’s pure Platonism.

I don't see anything unusually about Mark opening his account with the beginning of Jesus' adult ministry. What do you think of the Nativity? Were the other gospel writers mistaken? Are you suggesting they were influenced by the work of Plato?

I would echo what @Thegreatestoftheseislove said about sin - I am in no way free of sin, the difference is that I am more aware of it, actively try to avoid it as much as possible and seek forgiveness when I have slipped up.

This is not an exhaustive list and other Christians will be different, but in my own personal life I avoid, outside of anything obviously immoral or criminal:

Getting drunk (drinking in moderation is ok)
Drugs (other than medicine), including smoking
Gambling
Dressing immodestly
Certain types of music, or artists e.g. death metal
Horror movies, or any with excessive sex or violence
Occult activities, including reading horoscopes
Anything related to other religious or spiritual practices, including Yoga
Sex outside marriage, including pornography
Abortion or chemical contraception
Working on Sundays, if it can be helped
Swearing, including taking God's name in vain
Tattoos, excessive piercings or body modifications, including cosmetic surgery
Meat with blood in it or made with blood e.g. black pudding.

There's also behaviours such as lying, cheating, gossip, hate, slander, selfishness, judging, vanity, greed, laziness etc. that it's also important to recognise and steer clear of.

I’m sorry? I still can’t see where you have explained why the Beast cannot be Nero. I’m not asking you to explain again, just link your original explanation as I’d like to understand your reasoning.

I’m not sure why you think it’s impossible to be Christ, can you please expand.

Theres plenty of scholarly discussion about Paul being a Jewish mystic, I’ll find some links so not really that far fetched. Would this cause you a problem if he was?

well even the additions you mention to the written word are still really only experience through the written word. If they exist independently why bother with the bible.

Actually the earliest copies of the Gospel of Mark don’t end with him appearing to his disciples. It ends with a Man outside the tomb telling Mary Jesus will meet his disciples in Galilee. The post death appearance was a later addition. Without this it is perfectly possible to read Mark as a cyclical story

Well we don’t know who wrote Matthew (likely to be last couple of decades of first century in Syria) it seems likely he was trying to reenergise the Jewish nature of Christ a la Peter. Peter was known to have followers in Syria, he also emphasised the Jewish nature of Jesus.,The birth story of Jesus revolves heavily around the idea of fulfilment of Jewish lineage snd Prophecy. There are echos of Daniel in the appearance of the magi from the east and Exodus with the slaughter of the innocent. It was a book written by a Jew for Jews. It was obviously written after Mark and heavily relied upon this work but have it a spin to re- emphasise the jewishness.

Luke was most likely written in response to this and favoured Paul obviously.

John is a matter on its own.

But everything you list is a value judgement, what is immodest dress. Even a sip of alcohol will alter your body, what is the cut off for being drunk?

What’s wrong with horror movies, what’s excessive sex and violence.

Sitting here in my Iron Maiden T Shirt I’m interested in what music you are thinking is sinful - you mention death metal, what particularly draws you to single that out? What makes music sinful?

Why do you have an issue with working Sundays? Surely that should be Saturday as God instructed.

what’s wrong with tattoos? What is excessive piercing? Why is that bad? Where do you stand on circumcision?

why is meat without blood in it ok? What’s the difference (apart from food safety).

Where do you stand on abortion if it’s detrimental to a woman to give birth?

Where do you stand with the astrological signs at St Peter’s? Where to you stand with the use of astrology in the church in the early period and renaissance?

why the hatred of Scandinavian gymnastics which is basically what most village hall yoga is.

where do uou stand on all the different religions which have shaped Christianity?

Do you think I’m going to hell?

Well, that's a ridiculous and irrational list.

Mine is much shorter:

1. Do no harm.

Just had another look and honestly, I think your list of behaviours, which comes off as an after thought, contains things far, far more important than your list of things that are absolutely key to you. You've got your priorities so very far wrong.

@Kdtym10 What's wrong with yoga??

@greendaisie pretty sure it's OP who objects to yoga, not @Kdtym10 . Some fundamentalist Christian traditions consider yoga to be occult/not Christian because it comes from a non Western, non-Christian tradition. Which is ridiculous, of course, but if you truly believe that your branch of Christianity is the Only One True Faith and all othes (including different forms of Christianity) are wrong, it's a logical position to take.

It's this sort of thinking that makes me happy to be atheist.

There’s nothing wrong with yoga, I go 3x per week.

it was the OP who put it on a list of sins. There’s a certain perspective in Christianity that because the spirituality of yoga isn’t Christian it’s evil. That’s why some churches don’t allow their halls to be used for yoga classes. Sandra in her yoga pants and Tibetan sound bowls is an agent of Satan or something apparently leading farting middle aged women to the dark side.

Most of the yoga poses used now have very little history within yoga (which traditionally is more a spiritual practice done seated) most of the stretches/asanas Are modern and based on Scandinavian/European gymnastics and exercise from the period of colonisation (quite a funny selling cosmos to Newcastle move).

Totally agree. The other list is largely made up by American evangelists. Although the blood thing is in the bible for health and safety reasons -God giving cooking instructions. Bit like the whole shell fish, get bodies in the ground asap rules etc.

You might find This of some interest I’d you like yoga.

@Kdtym10& @pointythings

Although the blood thing is in the bible for health and safety reasons -God giving cooking instructions. Bit like the whole shell fish, get bodies in the ground asap rules etc.

The other stuff can be referenced in the Bible too. Tbh I don't think the list is that shocking.

Alcohol, drugs and gambling are something which many people struggle with and get addicted to. Tastes in art, fashion, film and music inevitably are affected by someone's beliefs. A Christian won't want to be praying to Hindu gods or practicing divination and as such practices such as Yoga and reading horoscopes might make them feel uncomfortable. Even though the modern day equivalent is usually far removed from its spiritual origins. Equally tattoos are referenced in Leviticus and the body is a temple idea might be making the op uncomfortable about this.

Suffice to say it is a personal list.

I'm not as strict, I don't think. But I don't aim to listen to music or watch films or wear clothes I don't like. I do have 3 tattoos - they are markings that were supposed to look like moles (bit too blue though!) that the radiologist made in order to line the machines up! I don't intend on getting any more! I don't do Yoga (tried in the 6th form didn't get on with it) but do stretches. Once tried some breathing techniques after watching some Wim Hoff but was put off because that type of hyperventilating can make people lose consciousness. Apparently he learnt the techniques from Tibetan monks I think (?) So now I do cold water therapy with my own breathing only I make sure I do breathe!

The thing is with a personal list is that it very much is in context with the OP's life as it is now. Who knows what would change if her situation were different.