Aren't all evangelical churches spiritually abusive?

[harerunner]

....by their very nature!

Their whole message... heaven if you believe and obey, everlasting hell and torment if you dare not to, is surely spiritually abusive in itself. It's not just a pastor or two, it's the whole system!

Hence why I said the problem is a lot higher. I don't know what the answer is, but as you've yourself said,

"it should be the thing that worries me the most! I can only assume that you don't give a damn whether I burn for eternity! How loving!'

So the churches are being loving by trying to 'save' people. Whether a God that created this system is also one we should worship is a far trickier question.

Tbh if you feel that way you have to extend it to the whole of Christianity. I've been in Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical and C of E churches and the belief that hell exists and the way to avoid it is through faith in Jesus is the same in all denominations.

I've never met an atheist tell people they're going to hell for not sharing their beliefs.

So the churches are being loving by trying to 'save' people. Whether a God that created this system is also one we should worship is a far trickier question.

Frankly, if they do genuinely believe those who don't believe are going to spend all eternity in everlasting torment, they are generally extremely nonchalant about it.. If my neighbour's house was on fire I'd do everything I could save them, but most Christians are like "meh" when it comes to the everlasting torment apparently awaiting most of humanity.

Fair enough... I may not agree with you, but I wouldn't class your "salvation" related beliefs as spiritually abusive.

Well quite. I am not quite sure why OP has targeted evangelicals in particular. Have you had a specific run in, OP? Christians believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, their saviour. Different denominations may have different views of the 'hell' you are being saved from, with some watering it down to essentially meaningless concepts like ' eternal separation from God' (which if you have never believed in God in the first place, does not seem so bad).

I do get tired of people being quite comfortable having rants like this against Christianity, yet refusing to say a word against Islam, even though Islam tends to have turned up to 11 whatever the rant is about. Makes the person having a rant seem less righteous and more, well, cowardly. If you have a problem with it with one religion, you should be prepared to openly speak against it on all religions who share that belief.

Why is no one every allowed to say anything critical about Christianity without someone coming along saying "you wouldn't say that about Islam" like it's some kind of gotcha.

No, its pointing out a blatant hypocrisy and cowardice. Its a bit like bullying, picking only on the easy , unpopular kid who won't fight back, but never picking on the 'popular' kid who will.

The phrase ' some kind of gotcha' is, however. very clearly used as 'some kind of gotcha'

Because evangelical Christianity has cultish aspects that are problematic. That other religions have their own issues is just whataboutery.

Are you really characterising world religions in terms of kids?

Christianity has aspects I am personally critical of, including the evangelical movement. If you want to criticise Islam start your own thread.

Since when is Islam the popular kid?

If you want to criticise Islam, feel free to start a thread. In the meantime, I don't see how it's cowardly to criticise evangelical Christianity without mentioning every single other religion.

Gently, this isn't my isn't experience, I'm unsure what liberal churches you've tried but from my point of view not all churches are patriarchal at all. Try a Unitarian chapel or a Quaker meeting for example, or a meditation group that draws on spiritual wisdom from many traditions.

This thread is not about cultish aspects though, is it? Its about the very mainstream concept in Christianity and Islam of being saved through belief.

I put 'popular' in quotes because, as you will be well aware, the sort of people who are happy to criticise Christianity, and pat themselves on the back for doing so, would never dream of levelling those same criticisms at Islam, even though they apply more there. So yes, there is a clear preferential treatment there.

And my point is exactly that people would be far to scared to start a thread criticising Islam but know that a thread criticising Christianity will always be well received.

There have been threads criticising Islam in the past. And you are free to make one.

I see no evidence that OP is scared of Islam in anyway. She started this thread on the back of a scandal involving an evangelical organisation, and as Christianity is the state religion in the UK it makes sense that it is the one talked about the most.

Yes they are and the version of Catholicism I grew up with in Ireland was spiritually abusive too and created such a toxic culture in Ireland after the British withdrew. I hate to say it because I really hated his behaviour for a long time but Ian Paisley had a point about Catholic Ireland.

What are you so angry about?
How is my post not loving?
Clearly you are concerned about it if you have a reaction like that.
Go to a church that you feel comfortable in 🤷‍♀️

And I don't recall people saying burn in hell. I agree, that preaching is not helpful or motivating.
Hell is the absence of God. We can only imagine what that would be like. Personally I don't see it as a fiery furnace, just a dark, bleak hopeless, unrelenting fear.
I'll chose God any day thanks.

I think this is a bit of a simplistic reduction of the Bible.

Evangelical churches tend to be the set of churches within the Church of England - or outside it where there is a strong belief in the Bible as being God's word and therefore a fantastic guide on how to live your life.

There are churches in this sector - and in many others - where there is abusive leadership, but that is a fundamental flaw with some individuals, not the underlying concept of whether the Bible is God's word or not - there will always be some people who take what is good and twist it to their benefit...

So there are really two questions to be asked:

• Is the Bible God's word - to be used as the guide to your life?
• Is it abusive to teach that word if it is done in a way which is not a cult of leadership for those running the church, but in humility and servitude where the leadership point everything back to God and His word in the Bible?

Ultimately it is up to each individual to decide for themselves the first bit - but in reality if you join an Evangelical church then you will tend to believe that...

If you are therefore happy with the first bit, find a church where the leadership follow Christ as being servant leaders who are there to serve, to help you explore God's word and do so in humility - and there are many many such churches (and increasingly an awareness of the need for leadership to be Christ-like in nature).

So, nothing abusive in any of that - and bear in mind that while the CofE is declining in numbers, Church attendance in the UK is on the increase - almost entirely driven by increase within the evangelical sector of the church.

So, that leaves one final question - do you believe that the core message of the Bible is abusive - if so, then I for one would argue against that - the strong message throughout the Bible is one of phenomenal love and compassion and sacrifice from a God who continually deals with a people who are rebellious, disobedient and will do anything other than follow God!

Yes there is a very clear warning in the Bible that there are choices and therefore also consequences (much as any parent would teach a child!), the difference is that the choice God offers is available to anyone and is absolutely free as Jesus paid the cost by dying on the cross.

To believe that we should only have 'positive' outcomes and it is unfair to have any 'negative' outcomes is of course a typical post-modern self-centered egotistical perspective :smile: we all know that choices have consequences - if you stick you hand in the fire you will be burned, if you jump off a building it will hurt, if you play with knives you may cut yourself - it is only in recent decades that we have had a culture that has increasingly moved to a nihilistic world in which we want to be able to do anything and yet reap no consequences - we want to be able to make any choice but not accept that every choice leads down a path - self-centred to the extreme.

So, any reasonable person would accept that choices lead to outcomes - why would God's message be any different? We don't know what Hell looks like - the best definition I have heard is that Heaven will be to be with our Creator God permanently - we were created by God to be in relationship with Him, so being continually in His presence will be the perfect fulfilment of that created purpose - and therefore equally, Hell would be to be absent from God - to not be in His presence... no idea whether that means burning and pitchforks etc. - but makes sense as a way of understanding the difference...

How though is that abusive - how is it abusive to say that if you reject God you won't spend eternity in His presence? Surely if you reject God you won't want to spend eternity in His presence (admittedly you might then discover that you got it wrong!), but conceptually for those who don't believe in God / positively reject God in their lives, then all they will get is an outcome which is completely what they wanted - no God.

How is it abusive to say that actions have consequences? Do we not see that every day in all that we do - stating that we want to take the actions, but not suffer the consequences is no more pointless than King Canute standing on the shoreline and telling the waves not to come in! If you do xyz you will have set off on a specific path and you will have pre-determined the range of consequences...

Of course, if what is meant is that you want everything your own way, do what you want, live your life for yourself, be your #bestSelf etc. and not suffer any consequences as a result - well, you are only fooling yourself - that is not how life works...

So, I don't think there is any way in which the concept of Heaven and Hell can be considered to be abusive - they are simply outcomes of a choice that everyone has and which is totally free - there is no barrier to choosing either approach... It would be abusive if there were limits / barriers / hoops to jump through -but there are none - simply come to God in penitence and ask to follow Christ - that is it - simple, easy and transformational.

* sorry not sure how to do a second quote
Frankly, if they do genuinely believe those who don't believe are going to spend all eternity in everlasting torment, they are generally extremely nonchalant about it.. If my neighbour's house was on fire I'd do everything I could save them, but most Christians are like "meh" when it comes to the everlasting torment apparently awaiting most of humanity.

This is a very fair challenge - and one which many churches fail - the only thing I can say in mitigation is that many people try and culture / society / the recipient can be very much against them to the extent that it is labelled as proselytising and considered emotional abuse - oh the irony!

But lots of churches do - and many charities, there are missions in schools and universities and most committed christians will spend time praying for and talking to friends / neighbours / colleagues, but there is a lot of resistance...

the other point to note is that it is not the job of others to 'convert' you - there is a wonderful simplicity in Christianity in being the only faith that can not be indocrinated as it is a personal relationship between individual and Jesus - so you can be introduced and can be assisted with questions, but ultimately it is your choice to make and if you are already aware of the Gospel message and the options, then ultimately - over to you - your analogy is a bit like someone in a fire who has the fire extinguisher / ladder / escape equipment all in front of them - the fireman can help explain how to use them, but over to you to choose to use them - you can't blame the fireman for not rescuing you if you choose to not use what is in front of you...

I'm not sure I understand your claim about being abusive by their "very nature"?

What does the Bible say to you? What does God speak into your heart?

There is quite a good article here about the concept of heaven/hell : What Jesus really said For anyone who is upset or angry about the idea of death when they've excluded God, I'd say take comfort from the last paragraph of the article.

Bigthingssmall my views on Christianity apply to all religions including Islam.

Live and let live and all that stuff but those of us who have no truck with the gods do not need to be criticised, pitied, or worse prayed for.

It is only in recent decades that we have had a culture that has increasingly moved to a nihilistic world in which we want to be able to do anything and yet reap no consequences - we want to be able to make any choice but not accept that every choice leads down a path - self-centred to the extreme.

Who believes that actions have no consequences? I've certainly never met anyone like that.

So, I don't think there is any way in which the concept of Heaven and Hell can be considered to be abusive - they are simply outcomes of a choice that everyone has and which is totally free - there is no barrier to choosing either approach... It would be abusive if there were limits / barriers / hoops to jump through -but there are none - simply come to God in penitence and ask to follow Christ - that is it - simple, easy and transformational.

If I was to say to someone "do what I say or I'll hurt you" that would be abusive, even if it was easy for them to do what I want. I'm not sure what you think barriers have to do with abuse.

So, nothing abusive in any of that - and bear in mind that while the CofE is declining in numbers, Church attendance in the UK is on the increase - almost entirely driven by increase within the evangelical sector of the church.

Do you have any figures to back this up?

This is a very fair challenge - and one which many churches fail - the only thing I can say in mitigation is that many people try and culture / society / the recipient can be very much against them to the extent that it is labelled as proselytising and considered emotional abuse - oh the irony!

But lots of churches do - and many charities, there are missions in schools and universities and most committed christians will spend time praying for and talking to friends / neighbours / colleagues, but there is a lot of resistance...

Irony how? Most people don't like being preached at, especially if that involves being told they're going to hell. And doing it to your colleagues is unprofessional.

Yes, basically. Not much else to say on the matter. The Evangelical version of God is an abusive gaslighting monster.

@clashok
ironic because within the points made by the OP is the accusation (which has some merit) that if the Christian story is so good - why do Christians not do more to tell others etc....

@MrsMorrisey

Personally I don't see it as a fiery furnace, just a dark, bleak hopeless, unrelenting fear.

Ok, so because hell is "just" a place of everlasting, unrelenting mental torment and utter despair, that makes it somehow acceptable? Inflicting that on someone is still monstrous!