Aren't all evangelical churches spiritually abusive?

[harerunner]

....by their very nature!

Their whole message... heaven if you believe and obey, everlasting hell and torment if you dare not to, is surely spiritually abusive in itself. It's not just a pastor or two, it's the whole system!

I'm not Christian (I'm muslim), I do believe hell is needed. To act as a deterrent. Otherwise, there will be a free for all. There are so many people who either are evil or do evil things.

Are you upset that there is prisons meant for people who don't abide to the rules of society/ the law, get sent to? As punishment?

I'm not an expert in Islam, but we get thought that God is very forgiving but that there are clauses to forgiveness. God forgives sins we commit that affect ourselves. But the sins committed against other people and things, we need to seek forgiveness from those we have transgressed against and God.
For example if you steal something from someone then, you need to return the item and seek forgiveness from the person you stole from and seek forgiveness from God too.
However, if you skipped a prayer then you only ask God forgiveness.

My daughter’s in-laws are German evangelists. Fuck me, what a joyless life they lead.
Luckily, my son-in-law - although a believer in god (unlike his wife lol) - has left the church.

@Maatandosiris

But this is largely what Christians believe (and many other religions, there’s a good place and a bad place

In which case, I could have extended the remit of my thread beyond evangelical churches!

I guess people buy into it all willingly for a variety of reasons. Never met a Christian yet who thinks they’re going to hell.

I never actually believed I was going to hell when I was a Christian who still believed in such a place. However, the idea of it still traumatised me, and there was a concern that if I might end up there if my belief wavered.

And that's one of the issue with Evangelical theology. Salvation is all about "belief" - an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. If you doubt your beliefs, then you run the risk of hellfire. It's a manipulative way to keep people in line and keep them from questioning too much...

Question too much, and you let doubt creep in. Doubt erodes belief... And given that the central tenet of Evangelical Christianity is that your salvation is squarely based on "belief", having doubt places your salvation at risk.... and so you keep your doubts in check, you refuse to let your brain engage. The cognitive dissonance is deafening! It's a complete mindfuck.

That's why I like being Jewish. We don't try to spread it around!

@MortifiedSeptember

I'm not Christian (I'm muslim), I do believe hell is needed. To act as a deterrent. Otherwise, there will be a free for all. There are so many people who either are evil or do evil things.

I'm sorry but I think that's absolute nonsense... I don't believe in hell, and nor I believe do the majority of people, Yet I don't need to fear in some kind of everlasting torment after death to behave morally and lovingly.

Frankly, if hell were such a deterrent, how come so many faith leaders are abusers?

@MortifiedSeptember

And the fear of hell never kept Christians and Muslims through the ages committed barbaric atrocities... No, rather than promote morality, the concepts of heaven and hell, and a belief in a god that has divined such a thing, encourages intolerance and violence, as 1000s of years of history attests.

@Cherryana

I agree, many Christians just don't seem to be able to grasp it all... I suppose that's why they're still Christians!

Christians say how their faith has brought them joy and peace... and I get that. I can see how a belief that they've stumbled upon this "good news" that means they are forgiven all their sins and can live life in bliss for eternity would elicit that response. I've experienced it myself!

However, in my view, having been a Christian, it's a construct that just doesn't hold together, and is based on incredible and frankly preposterous beliefs, and has glaring inconsistencies that go right through the heart of it....

And when I finally let go of the feeling I had to believe in something that fundamentally couldn't be substantiated and was riddled with so many contradictions, it gave me more peace and joy than I ever felt when I was a Christian.

I think this is the very reason why Street preaching should be banned.

I walked past a street preacher with my child last weekend and the preacher was shouting at the top of his voice we were all going to burn in hell and suffer eternal torture if we didn't listen him. It was really scary stuff for a child to hear. It was like bullying and being verbally bashed. How is that acceptable? It should be a disturbance of the peace offence.

My relative is a Christian and belongs to a very small sect which promotes the evangelical approach, she believes all gay people are going straight to hell. She said that she wouldn't accept her daughter being under her roof if she were gay. How can you be sent to hell for simply being how God made you?

She takes any opportunity to start talking about the strange bits of the bible because she has been taught to. Like Judges 19, how on earth is that accepted as support against homosexuality? abuse the woman not the man! I challenge any Christian to explain that section. She tried to say, its okay because she was just a concubine and that was okay.

We need to ask more questions of all religions and not be afraid to challenge thinking that promotes abuse. Just because one church is nice and supportive, doesn't mean all are. Some are doing a lot more harm than good.

And that's one of the issue with Evangelical theology. Salvation is all about "belief"

sorry - let’s be accurate - Biblical theology, the Bible makes that statement, and therefore equally, Christian theology.

Evangelical Christianity is simply an informal description of those for whom the Bible has a central role… there is no specific evangelical theology separate from that defined by the Bible… it is not for humans to add to God’s word.

I am a Christian first and foremost - an individual who is in a relationship with God and who follows Jesus Christ having accepted that he died for me to allow me to have that relationship with God despite my sins.

That is the core definition of being a Christian regardless of denomination / churchmanship / country etc.

evangelical / Church of England / Anglican are all convenient labels which help understand, but which don’t define me.

God didn’t set up lots of denominations and subsets of his church, he simply:

• created humans
• gave them choice (so that they were not robots)
• was sad / upset when they chose to sin
• knew that as he is perfect that the sin of humans would be a barrier to the relationship he created us to have with him
• tried several ways to fix that but humans didn’t play ball - continuing to sin
• so went for the solution which no longer required humans to do anything - sent his son to earth to die instead of us (the sin needs to be paid for and if we pay for our sin that means not being with God so he paid for us)
• those who then accept that (he still gives choice even when we don’t choose wisely!) and follow Christ form his church - which is designed to be one church (but no surprise, humans still can’t get it right!)
• those who choose to believe and follow him and accept Jesus’ payment for their sins will be able to have that relationship and be with God because their sins will have been paid for / cancelled out by Jesus dying on the cross - therefore when they die they can be with God in heaven…
• those who choose to ignore this - say no thank you will not accept that payment for their sins and therefore will not be able to be in relationship with God either here on earth or, when they die, join him in heaven - they will ‘go to hell’ I.e spend eternity not with God, but that is their choice, the alternative is free for everyone, so there is no excuse to not accept it other than free choice to not spend time with God.
• All of this is what we are told in the Bible, it hasn’t changed for thousands of years, it has nothing to do with labels as to ‘type of Christian’ it is a biblical view, it is God’s view…

So, none of this is evangelical or Anglican or Church of England - it is what God tells us through the Bible, it is the core summary of Christianity and the basis for what billions of people believe world wide…

by definition none of this can be abusive:

• it is God’s decision / approach / actions - taken in love for those he created, patiently and lovingly trying to find ways to have the relationship he designed and created us for - despite the fact that humans (erroneously) think they know better and keep disobeying / sinning
• God is perfect, so what he decides and does can not be abusive - no-one knows the humans he created better than him and though many humans find all sorts of excuses and arguments to pretend otherwise, it will never change
• being abusive by definition has to involve the recipient having no choice, it is always a power battle where the recipient can not prevent it / comes off worse… that does not apply here - there is no power battle, god offers full relationship with him and forgiveness for our sins free of charge and with no compunction to accept - there is no ‘coming off worse’ for the recipient, the end result is either eternity with God or without and one assumes that as we have free choice we will all get what we want, otherwise simply choose the other!

so, the Bible / God’s decisions and what he tells us are not abusive…

totally accept that there are flawed humans (clue, we are all flawed which is why we needed Jesus to die for us) some of whom are in leadership and some of those who are abusive in that leadership, but:

• it is a small number - the vast majority of Christian leaders are humble, repentant humans who know that their role is not to be God but to point to God
• while what those few do is wrong it is not of God - some people doing wrong in God’s name doesn’t change what or who God is, it doesn’t change the amazing nature of Jesus dying for us and giving us the ability to have our sins forgiven and to be in relationship with God now and for eternity, it doesn’t change the fact that those who choose to ignore God will not be with God for eternity and therefore will be in Hell not Heaven
• and when they preach accurately, the other aspects of who they are and what they do doesn’t mean that the truths they tell are wrong…

ultimately, we all have a choice - a personal choice - are we going to individually choose to accept the above - that God created us, that we have sinned and can’t therefore be with God, that Jesus died for us and to make payment for that sin, and that by simply accepting - saying “yes Jesus I want to accept you as Lord and follow you” is all that is needed to make the choice to be with God for ever…

if each of us chooses that free choice we will be with God in heaven for eternity

if we choose not to accept, then we will not be with God for eternity- and that is known as hell

our individual choice as described and laid out by God in the Bible - the core of every church and denomination world wide… and there is zero that is abusive about that free choice!

being abusive by definition has to involve the recipient having no choice, it is always a power battle where the recipient can not prevent it / comes off worse…

So you think everyone in an abusive relationship is physically forced to be there?

If the only reason you don't do evil things is because of the threat of hell then that's quite worrying. As it is, many people dot believe in hell and yet don't go around murdering.

This says more about you than anyone else. I have lots of atheist friends and family who are good, kind, loving people. They don't need the fear of hell to be good people.

Not necessarily physically forced, but yes there will always be coercion / power imbalance etc - anyone who does anything with safeguarding knows that is one of the factors that flags up an abusive situation

And you don't think "do what I say or you'll go to hell" counts as coercion?

sorry - let’s be accurate - Biblical theology, the Bible makes that statement, and therefore equally, Christian theology.

In your world: Evangelical = Biblical = Christian, and it's all neat and simple, but even though you believe that Christianity is one and the same as Evangelical Christianity, in general Christianity is understood to consist of a much wider spectrum of theology.

I,ve always found them to be friendly and welcoming which is the main thing unlike the C of E where you feel nobody gives a damn about you unless you are a couple or a family.
I'm a pagan/wiccan these days but still have positive feelings about the evangelical churches I attended in the past.

@akkakk

Your post makes various cyclical arguments.

You believe the Bible tells you all you need to know about God. Why? God tells you that the Bible is his Word.... through the words of the Bible. 🤔

Because the Bible says God is perfect, he must be... because it says so in the Bible. And when God's actions appear far from perfect... well, they just are perfect, because the Bible says he is perfect... and the Bible is the word of God, so it's true.... and it's true because the Bible tells me that it's the word of God. 🤔

It's a total mindfuck!

No, because you are deliberately using emotive language to make it sound like that…

God gives a simple choice and then leaves it totally up to us how to choose - that there are consequences / outcomes for our choices should be of no surprise - it is no different to conversations you might have with a child - if you put your hands in the fire you will be burned / if you play with sharp knives you might cut yourself - a warning of natural consequences… that is not an adult threatening to burn / cut a child - it is a warning that the child’s choice will have consequences…

to fight against it is to be the equivalent of saying “I want to play with fire but it is unfair that I will be burned, and your warning me is coercion”! We would rightly all see that as nonsense!

It should be no surprise to anyone that if there is a choice to spend time with God or to choose otherwise that the outcome of choosing otherwise will be time spent without God - kind of logical really! That is Hell… warning people that their choice has an outcome is hardly coercion…

coercion would be to force you to ‘believe’ and to ‘follow Jesus’ - no-one is doing that - God doesn’t force anyone - the Bible shows the lengths he goes to in allowing choice… but that doesn’t mean that there are no consequences and they too are made very clear so that you have all the information you need to make that choice…

I would have serious self doubts if I needed the threat of hell or the reward of heaven to guide how I live. I prefer a straightforward moral code, I don't need the god stuff.

No, I'm describing it as how it is.

If the options are "worship me and follow my rules" or "go to hell" then that is tantamount to saying "do what I say or suffer". Yes it's a choice, but that doesn't mean it can't be seen as abusive.

I wonder @harerunner if you have considered putting this question to someone who has studied theologies and is in the position to give a full and informative response rather than MN?
You seem to be speaking as if something has touched a nerve somewhere, otherwise why would any atheist care about hell in the first place? I do not mean that scathingly or accusingly, genuinely just mean atheism is about rejecting religion anyway so therefore what others believe wouldn't matter.
I would encourage you to speak with a priest, minister, rabbi etc. In fact speak to several of them and see what answers you find. I suspect you won't as it's easier and more affirming to spout anti-religious rants online and have people tell you you're right, but if I'm wrong and you are genuinely curious then that would be the way to find the answers to your questions.

It is abusive and so is inflicting it on children, teenagers and young adults who are a major focus on evangelical outreach and control. I walked away in my 20s and it was the most difficult thing I have ever done. The power the church held over me was extraordinary. I had to lose my friendship networks and start over, and also had to spend many years figuring out what I believed and finding ways to feee myself if the culture of guilt and shame the church created. I still have a strong instinct to defer to power to fit a specific model of a certain ‘good’ person. The happy clappy evangelical movements absolutely have a sinister side to them, applied through control and manipulation.

Good riddance to them

No - there is still a flaw in that logic!

God simply says

• to be with me for eternity as I designed you to be, you will need forgiveness for your sins and that comes through accepting Jesus dying for you and following him
• you are totally open to choosing not to do that, but sadly you will not then be with me for eternity

there is no coercion in presenting a choice and making it a totally free choice…

you are though:

• putting a lot of loaded and emotional baggage around the terminology of Hell - surely if you don’t want to be with God then being apart from God is what you do want?! In fact would it not then be hell to be forced to be with God for eternity if that is not what you want - now that would be coercion!
• implying that this is a bit like a child with a club - you can only join if you do xyz whereas this is not hoops to jump through that are illogical - God is perfect and therefore can not be in the presence of those who are imperfect but he still wants our company so he has sacrificed his son to allow that to happen and made it totally free for you to do that - it is more like a club which says there is a cost for membership but don’t worry as the club owner I have paid that cost so that everyone can join and there are no barriers, but your choice, no compulsion - the total opposite of coercion

your implication is that you want heaven but don’t want to have to accept Jesus, therefore it is coercion because somehow you are entitled to go to heaven and shouldn’t be told what to do to get that end goal! I mean that really is silly when you consider it - it is simply a choice, freely available and freely made - do you want to be with God for ever, or not - you get to choose and you get what you choose - how could that ever be coercion?!

heaven is simply being with God and worshipping him for ever - that excites me but presumably doesn’t excite everyone - if you are not interested in that, then don’t choose it - but get rid of the emotional baggage over the words heaven and hell - they simply define being with God or not and you get to choose

@akkakk You put it so much better than I could've! It is absolutely a choice and you're right, if someone chooses not to be with God then they have every right to choose that. Hell is simply the absence of God, the absence of that Love. Which you are free to reject if you wish.

Interesting thread. Thanks @Thegreatestoftheseislove for the Time article.

I’m interested in evangelical beliefs/practice especially US ones. I think when you follow the ‘Bible believing’ approach, rejecting Church orthodoxy/history and often not really even requiring pastors/leaders to have proper theological qualifications or training, you risk hugely misinterpreting and misunderstanding the context and meaning of the scripture itself.

on the other hand it offers a mega-Protestant experience of personal engagement with the text, which has its appeal - but unfortunately can lead to stupidity such as believing that things like the creation stories in Genesis, expulsion from Eden, Jonah and the whale, etc literally happened.

The literal interpretations and the heaven/hell saved/damned way of thinking appeal to people who like to feel superior and aren’t comfortable with nuance or uncertainty.