Aren't all evangelical churches spiritually abusive?

[harerunner]

....by their very nature!

Their whole message... heaven if you believe and obey, everlasting hell and torment if you dare not to, is surely spiritually abusive in itself. It's not just a pastor or two, it's the whole system!

I still don't understand how that's ironic.

Are you saying it's unfair of God to inflict that?

You seem to be up for a fight which I'm not interested in.
There is some great replies on this thread written much more articulately. I wasn't saying "just" as to lighten it, more of an alternate view.
You have a choice and you seem to be angry that you can't live your life anyway you want.

Of course it's bloody unfair!!!!

No, it’s about evangelical Christianity - which definitely has cultish aspects.

The central belief of Christianity is that you only go to heaven if you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. Jesus literally says ‘I am the way the truth and the light. Those who believe in me shall not die but have eternal life.’
So if you don’t believe then you go…somewhere else…
It’s all toxic and there is a lot of fear amongst many Christians I have known about doing the wrong thing and upsetting God.

I understand that feeling and aspects of it can feel culty, pressurising and fanatical at times. Not the kind of loving and gracious environment that makes people want to stick around.

On the other hand, if you are a believer, then my understanding is that most people believe in the authority of scripture and so it's not really possible to brush the following to one side:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14 (I was taught that this is Jesus saying that he is the gate)

Seems pretty definitive?

Also "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14: 6

My point is that a lot of Christians want people to ignore those bits and that creates tension because they don't go away just because it makes people feel uncomfortable or like they're being mean. What are they supposed to do?

Yes I do think there absolutely is.

that surprises me - I have 50+ years in the evangelical church in the UK and abroad, with a lot of international experience of churches around the world - I don't think I have ever seen fear of that type - instead I see a lot of joy and peace through being in relationship with God. If there is fear and worry of that nature then something is going very wrong - and possibly the Bible is not being preached accurately...

The core gospel message is one of peace, love, redemption and coming to God in repentance to receive forgiveness freely given - none of that is about fear, panic, etc. I can totally understand that if there were goals to reach / hurdles to overcome / tasks to achieve and you felt you were failing at them then there could be worry and concern, but that is not the gospel message. As long as you are able to recognise that you have done wrong and say sorry for it - and accept Jesus dying for you, then there is literally nothing more to do to get to Heaven.

probably the most relevant passage in the Bible for this discussion is John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

It sums up the amazing story of the whole Bible:

• God loves us so much that despite our being sinners He would do anything to save us - and he did, he gave his only son
• There is no truth in any intent to condemn, God sent his son to save not condemn
• my favourite verse - whoever believes in him (Christians) is not condemned - that is it, final, definite, absolute - all you have to do is believe and follow Christ and you are in...
• of course that has a corollary, those who don't believe as discussed above will have to face the consequences of that - and this is serious stuff, they will be condemned.
• Verses 19-> explain a bit about how people react - there are those who resist because they don't want to reveal that they really rather like being selfish or greedy, or egoists, or... and so they resist because to accept is to admit that they are not perfect and do something about it - and not everyone likes to admit that they are not perfect / or wants the pain of having to change...

there is a common theme amongst many that they don't want to have to make these choices, but they don't realise that by abstaining / avoiding the issue, you are effectively saying no thank you - we all have the choice and if we say no thank you, we can't really complain about the outcome - if we don't like the outcome, then we have an option which is free / instant / available to all - to some in humility to say sorry to God and ask to follow Christ's way of life... yes it brings challenges (mainly in a cynical world response from those who chose otherwise), but it is the most amazing relationship possible and is genuinely life transforming...

You see o think it’s worse. If you don’t believe in hell then what difference does it make if someone is shouting at you that you’re going there.

cancel culture with its dreadful impact on freedom of speech affects everyone whether you believe in it or not.

explain a bit about how people react - there are those who resist because they don't want to reveal that they really rather like being selfish or greedy, or egoists, or... and so they resist because to accept is to admit that they are not perfect and do something about it - and not everyone likes to admit that they are not perfect / or wants the pain of having to change...

You actually think the only reason people don't convert to Christianity is because they're selfish greedy egoists?

Probably anecdotal. But I attended I Pentecostalist funeral about 5 years ago . It was all of that. Doom and gloom and slagging off other religions. Couldn't wait to leave tbh.

Never heard the like in a Catholic or Anglican church.

Is it a central belief? Lots of Christians, like myself, believe in universal reconciliation.

It seems that folk spend too much time raging against a concept they don't believe in and against other people's thoughts and opinions around Christianity and what Christians should or shouldn't do or believe.

Surprising fact: the Church (of whatever flavour) is imperfect by the very fact church is its people and human beings are flawed - which is the very reason for Jesus's birth, death and resurrection.

People's energies would be best spent on just living their own lives, preferably in kindness and love.

If folk don't believe in God then fine as it matters not what others may say, even if those others claim the label 'Christian'. If non-believing folk enjoy judging others, then fill ya' boots - there's much to judge. However it's a waste of time and energy raging against something they don't believe merely because others say they do believe.

Another surprising fact: Imperfect Christian people will continue to be imperfect until the end of their days on this earth. If they are Christians, they KNOW not to judge others, so must continue endeavouring to do as the Lord commands and live their own life according to His guidance.

I'm an evangelical Christian and there are three different theories evangelical Christians have about hell:

1. People are left there for eternity
2. Hell and whoever is in it will one day be completely destroyed
3. Hell and whoever is in it will one day be redeemed through Jesus in to the new heaven and earth.

But what we consistently believe is that hell is a place without God's presence. It is not a good place to be.

There is a definitive difference between good and evil and the difference really matters.

The only way to the father is through Jesus. Jesus is wonderful. And anyone's life would be better with Him than without Him.

I rage against evangelical Christianity, because I spent 25 years in that culture, and emerged from it very seriously damaged. It's no exaggeration to say it ruined many aspects of my life and relationships.

What you've quoted there is the party line, but the reality is very different. Evangelical Christianity is fundamentally abusive, harmful and based on a lot of lies, intellectual dishonesty and leaders getting off on being powerful.

@akkakk - Excellent response and one which I have been struggling to compose since the thread started.

I am sad to read of your experience. You have every right to rage against those who have hurt you. I am sincere when I say I truly hope you can somehow reconcile that hurt and damage and find a way of moving forward.

I will disagree with you that I've 'quoted' any 'party line' but merely an accumulation of my lived experience of walking and learning with God for the latter part of my life.

I agree with you that some people ('religious' nor not) can damage the lives of others. I agree with you that some people can be abusive, harmful, liars, dishonest (apologies, I don't know what is meant by 'intellectual dishonesty') and enjoying/abusing power. If those people claim the label 'Christian' they know what to do about their weakness. If those people are leaders and are hypocritical in their teaching then I would ask them what the Bible says about church leaders.

As I said in my previous post: all this is due to imperfect human beings and therefore imperfect Church. The human condition: the very reason for Jesus's birth, death and resurrection.

It seems that folk spend too much time raging against a concept they don't believe in and against other people's thoughts and opinions around Christianity and what Christians should or shouldn't do or believe.

I was a Christian for many years, and was immersed in the world of church form years.... I studied Christian theology extensively. My issues come from a wealth of personal experience... experience that has led me to view evangelical Christianity as fundamentally flawed and unhealthy on many levels, and damaged me and many, many people.

The human condition: the very reason for Jesus's birth, death and resurrection.

The idea that a man came back to life, spent 40 days with his friends, and then ascended into heaven is beyond preposterous. In any other sphere of human life, someone believing such a thing would be deemed to need psychiatric treatment!

The only way to the father is through Jesus. Jesus is wonderful. And anyone's life would be better with Him than without Him.

What does it mean to be "with him". He's nowhere to be seen, heard or touched.

You see o think it’s worse. If you don’t believe in hell then what difference does it make if someone is shouting at you that you’re going there.

For those who don't believe it's irrelevant... My concern is those who do believe... and who are, in part at least, held in their faith by the belief that they risk eternal damnation if they stray from their beliefs.

Oh, I think Evangelical Christianity is definitely harmful. I was brought up with it, left in in my late 20's and only now (20 years later) realising how..... unhelpful (at best) a lot of it was.
I think some of it is the certainty that's so.... difficult to deal with. 'The Bible clearly says'.... well it does on some things, but not on an awful lot else. They say that the opposite of faith is doubt. I think it's certainty. Certain that 'their way' is right, that 'their way' of reading and interpreting the bible is the only (right) way', certain that what they believe are 'the right beliefs'. No room for questions, different viewpoints, criticism. It's so... narrow.

But this is largely what Christians believe (and many other religions, there’s a good place and a bad place - which vary in degrees how different they are) there are requirements to get into the good place.

I guess people buy into it all willingly for a variety of reasons. Never met a Christian yet who thinks they’re going to hell.

the danger is though for vulnerable people who are manipulatied in many of the more cultish churches. Who might well believe it

@harerunner - very similar experience
@Catinabeanbag absolutely agree with the point you make about ‘certainty’.

I have found that expressing my changed view with other Christian’s (does not happen often) is met with the same response:

-Did you have a faith in the first place/did you ever fully believe?

-What you’re saying is about church not God. People get it wrong but that is not God.

-You have misunderstood the theology.
That’s not my understanding (version) of Christianity.

-What do you think you will be saying on your death bed?

These responses have been ubiquitous and versions of them have definitely popped up here.