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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Aren't all evangelical churches spiritually abusive?

186 replies

harerunner · 14/09/2023 06:24

....by their very nature!

Their whole message... heaven if you believe and obey, everlasting hell and torment if you dare not to, is surely spiritually abusive in itself. It's not just a pastor or two, it's the whole system!

OP posts:
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meditated · 15/09/2023 09:29

I think we are overdue the next social construct that will take place of religion - bring people together + confirm some societal rules and expectations.

Religions are outdated, and full of controversies that a modern mind cannot just accept blindly.

Maatandosiris · 15/09/2023 09:31

meditated · 15/09/2023 09:29

I think we are overdue the next social construct that will take place of religion - bring people together + confirm some societal rules and expectations.

Religions are outdated, and full of controversies that a modern mind cannot just accept blindly.

I think we already have this- it’s called the church of woke. And guess who are the losers in this new world order - yep, women.

People are still gullible. There’s a whole raft of people insisting men can become women. Transubstantiation on a whole new level!

meditated · 15/09/2023 09:35

I disagree. I don't know what church of Woke is, but calling it a church already makes it sound just like another thing requiring faith rather than allowing reasoning.

Religions were created by men for men - they have never favoured women to begin with.

clashok · 15/09/2023 09:45

akkakk · 15/09/2023 09:13

No - there is still a flaw in that logic!

God simply says

  • to be with me for eternity as I designed you to be, you will need forgiveness for your sins and that comes through accepting Jesus dying for you and following him
  • you are totally open to choosing not to do that, but sadly you will not then be with me for eternity

there is no coercion in presenting a choice and making it a totally free choice…

you are though:

  • putting a lot of loaded and emotional baggage around the terminology of Hell - surely if you don’t want to be with God then being apart from God is what you do want?! In fact would it not then be hell to be forced to be with God for eternity if that is not what you want - now that would be coercion!
  • implying that this is a bit like a child with a club - you can only join if you do xyz whereas this is not hoops to jump through that are illogical - God is perfect and therefore can not be in the presence of those who are imperfect but he still wants our company so he has sacrificed his son to allow that to happen and made it totally free for you to do that - it is more like a club which says there is a cost for membership but don’t worry as the club owner I have paid that cost so that everyone can join and there are no barriers, but your choice, no compulsion - the total opposite of coercion

your implication is that you want heaven but don’t want to have to accept Jesus, therefore it is coercion because somehow you are entitled to go to heaven and shouldn’t be told what to do to get that end goal! I mean that really is silly when you consider it - it is simply a choice, freely available and freely made - do you want to be with God for ever, or not - you get to choose and you get what you choose - how could that ever be coercion?!

heaven is simply being with God and worshipping him for ever - that excites me but presumably doesn’t excite everyone - if you are not interested in that, then don’t choose it - but get rid of the emotional baggage over the words heaven and hell - they simply define being with God or not and you get to choose

I don't want heaven for fuck's sake, I don't believe in heaven. I'm saying that threatening someone with punishment if you don't obey them can be seen as abusive. If god says "do what I say or I'll send you to be tortured for all eternity" which he does according to many evangelical preachers (and other religions before I get accused of being scared of Islam or whatever) then that seems abusive to me.

You say heaven is being with god and hell being without god. That is not what everyone believes.

clashok · 15/09/2023 09:46

Maatandosiris · 15/09/2023 09:31

I think we already have this- it’s called the church of woke. And guess who are the losers in this new world order - yep, women.

People are still gullible. There’s a whole raft of people insisting men can become women. Transubstantiation on a whole new level!

Edited

Every single thread.

FaeWings · 15/09/2023 09:59

Thought I should also add to this thread that abuse in the church and particularly abuse carried out by religious leaders is a huge problem and is perhaps the most commonly and robustly condemned sin in the Bible.

The hypocrisy, the abuse of power, the damage done to vulnerable people in God's name is appalling. And the Bible has lots of things to say about it. It's condemned in all the Old Testament prophets and it's in Jesus' speeches against the Pharisees. Half of the New Testament letters only exist because abusive so called Apostles were misleading and harming the church through false teaching and swindling scams.

It has always been a problem, it will continue to be a problem until Jesus returns. Part of being a Christian means being vigilant against spiritual abuse and doing our best to stop it. It is very difficult and painful and yes a lot more work is needed. It is understandable that people turn away from God if they see his supposed people treating others so awfully.

Maatandosiris · 15/09/2023 10:22

clashok · 15/09/2023 09:46

Every single thread.

But it’s a valid point here, it’s perfectly reasonable and a much commented on comparison.

Why is there an issue with a much debated point being mentioned, I’m confused! What’s your opinion on the comparison?

Zampanò · 15/09/2023 10:25

Snowflake2023 · 15/09/2023 07:06

I think this is the very reason why Street preaching should be banned.

I walked past a street preacher with my child last weekend and the preacher was shouting at the top of his voice we were all going to burn in hell and suffer eternal torture if we didn't listen him. It was really scary stuff for a child to hear. It was like bullying and being verbally bashed. How is that acceptable? It should be a disturbance of the peace offence.

My relative is a Christian and belongs to a very small sect which promotes the evangelical approach, she believes all gay people are going straight to hell. She said that she wouldn't accept her daughter being under her roof if she were gay. How can you be sent to hell for simply being how God made you?

She takes any opportunity to start talking about the strange bits of the bible because she has been taught to. Like Judges 19, how on earth is that accepted as support against homosexuality? abuse the woman not the man! I challenge any Christian to explain that section. She tried to say, its okay because she was just a concubine and that was okay.

We need to ask more questions of all religions and not be afraid to challenge thinking that promotes abuse. Just because one church is nice and supportive, doesn't mean all are. Some are doing a lot more harm than good.

Your poor relative's daughter. Hope she gets away from her mother eventually.

MrsMorrisey · 15/09/2023 12:13

The more you post OP the more I think you must have been to some churches with terrible teaching.

To study theology and have the knowledge you have and then to turn away from the God who loves you due to the actions of people must be terribly upsetting for you.

I don't believe that doubt is a bad thing, we all doubt but for me the logic will always bring me back.

harerunner · 15/09/2023 12:43

MrsMorrisey · 15/09/2023 12:13

The more you post OP the more I think you must have been to some churches with terrible teaching.

To study theology and have the knowledge you have and then to turn away from the God who loves you due to the actions of people must be terribly upsetting for you.

I don't believe that doubt is a bad thing, we all doubt but for me the logic will always bring me back.

I've been to churches with a range of teaching, and wasn't an evangelical Christian for years before moving away from the faith. I've experienced it all, and know that evangelical concept of hell, whether you take that as literal fire and brimstone or a more nuanced eternity of utter spiritual anguish and despair, has been detrimental to my mental and spiritual health, as it is to many who give delve beyond the superficial...

My journey hasn't been personally impacted by abuse, at least nothing of a direct or acute nature, but more a growing sense that Christianity as a belief system is simply not credible, however hard I tried to hold on to the vestiges of it. Moreover, although it has its good points, and a lot of Jesus' teachings are wise and profound, the mental gymnastics required and the impact it had on me psychologically and sexually (I'm straight and otherwise typical sexually btw - this has nothing to do with being gay) has been damaging in hindsight.

Although I appreciate this may be hard to comprehend, I feel a lot freer and peaceful now I've moved away from the faith. I feel I can live my authentic self, and not try and force my mind and soul into some ill-fitting mould that sought to govern my thoughts and behaviour. I am genuinely happier, and not wallowing in pain inflicted by a few "bad apple" Christian leaders.

OP posts:
akkakk · 15/09/2023 13:01

harerunner · 15/09/2023 12:43

I've been to churches with a range of teaching, and wasn't an evangelical Christian for years before moving away from the faith. I've experienced it all, and know that evangelical concept of hell, whether you take that as literal fire and brimstone or a more nuanced eternity of utter spiritual anguish and despair, has been detrimental to my mental and spiritual health, as it is to many who give delve beyond the superficial...

My journey hasn't been personally impacted by abuse, at least nothing of a direct or acute nature, but more a growing sense that Christianity as a belief system is simply not credible, however hard I tried to hold on to the vestiges of it. Moreover, although it has its good points, and a lot of Jesus' teachings are wise and profound, the mental gymnastics required and the impact it had on me psychologically and sexually (I'm straight and otherwise typical sexually btw - this has nothing to do with being gay) has been damaging in hindsight.

Although I appreciate this may be hard to comprehend, I feel a lot freer and peaceful now I've moved away from the faith. I feel I can live my authentic self, and not try and force my mind and soul into some ill-fitting mould that sought to govern my thoughts and behaviour. I am genuinely happier, and not wallowing in pain inflicted by a few "bad apple" Christian leaders.

As with the view of others above, I think that it is terribly sad if anyone feels hurt or badly impacted by any Christian teaching - and it would be difficult for anyone to claim that has never happened - we can trace such behaviour back historically through the centuries - it is nothing new...

but - it is not what Jesus or the Bible teaches - they both teach a gospel of love and salvation - and yes that includes understanding that all our choices lead to consequences... if there are those who have used Biblical teaching to 'terrorise' or 'intimidate' or put pressure on those they should serve - then that is flawed humans and inappropriate - but it is not of God, nor does it or should it change the core Christian message. I think that it must be very difficult to hear the Christian message as one of redemption and salvation, (one where a compassionate creator God gave up his son to die for our sins) - when others have taken that message and twisted it and used it for abusive power purposes

I think it is therefore important to differentiate - the core Biblical message is not abusive / coersive / about power - it is simply a free choice with freely chosen outcomes - but yes people can be all those things - and we should rightly be dealing with that when it happens and looking to prevent it happening in the future.

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 15/09/2023 14:06

harerunner · 14/09/2023 22:42

The human condition: the very reason for Jesus's birth, death and resurrection.

The idea that a man came back to life, spent 40 days with his friends, and then ascended into heaven is beyond preposterous. In any other sphere of human life, someone believing such a thing would be deemed to need psychiatric treatment!

I agree that prima facie it sound preposterous, however that reduced statement/idea is excluding the full picture - the one which involves God. How amazing is it that the millions of folk who do believe it are not under psychiatric treatment, despite some unbelievers deeming they should be ... maybe it's a God-thing.

Torontonoob · 15/09/2023 14:12

Ex curate here and YANBU.

Wildly bonkers. The lot of it

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 15/09/2023 14:20

harerunner · 14/09/2023 22:39

It seems that folk spend too much time raging against a concept they don't believe in and against other people's thoughts and opinions around Christianity and what Christians should or shouldn't do or believe.

I was a Christian for many years, and was immersed in the world of church form years.... I studied Christian theology extensively. My issues come from a wealth of personal experience... experience that has led me to view evangelical Christianity as fundamentally flawed and unhealthy on many levels, and damaged me and many, many people.

If I studied surgical theory extensively, without practical application, would it make me a surgeon? If I studied nail art theory extensively, yet never practiced nail art, would I be able to claim to be a nail art technician? I guess I could claim to be both, although God and my heart/conscience would both tell me that's not true. Book learnin' and study is great and to be encouraged for those who love it, however.

Not sure what you mean by 'evangelical Christianity' as that is a flawed-man-made concept, but again, I agree that humans are fundamentally flawed and can and sometimes do cause damage to each other.

harerunner · 15/09/2023 15:02

If I studied surgical theory extensively, without practical application, would it make me a surgeon?

No, but I was an active Christian for many years so practiced it extensively! My theological studies weren't done in the abstract.

Not sure what you mean by 'evangelical Christianity' as that is a flawed-man-made concept, but again, I agree that humans are fundamentally flawed and can and sometimes do cause damage to each other.

The link below provides a pretty good summary:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Many evangelicals will inevitably say "well, that's just what a Christian is", and in so doing are effectively saying that other Christian theologies aren't "truly" Christian.

Most evangelicals are pretty ignorant about theological matters, beyond those closely tied to their evangelical perspective.

If they weren't so ignorant, it's unlikely they'd remain evangelicals! Evangelicalism can only really thrive in its own bubble, because it's a belief system is a precarious house of cards that tends to collapse under much scrutiny.

OP posts:
akkakk · 15/09/2023 15:28

harerunner · 15/09/2023 15:02

If I studied surgical theory extensively, without practical application, would it make me a surgeon?

No, but I was an active Christian for many years so practiced it extensively! My theological studies weren't done in the abstract.

Not sure what you mean by 'evangelical Christianity' as that is a flawed-man-made concept, but again, I agree that humans are fundamentally flawed and can and sometimes do cause damage to each other.

The link below provides a pretty good summary:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Many evangelicals will inevitably say "well, that's just what a Christian is", and in so doing are effectively saying that other Christian theologies aren't "truly" Christian.

Most evangelicals are pretty ignorant about theological matters, beyond those closely tied to their evangelical perspective.

If they weren't so ignorant, it's unlikely they'd remain evangelicals! Evangelicalism can only really thrive in its own bubble, because it's a belief system is a precarious house of cards that tends to collapse under much scrutiny.

That link gives a fairly good abstract of a man made label - in some ways labels are helpful as they are a shorthand to understanding someone - but equally they can be very unhelpful:

  • they can be simplistic without nuance
  • they can limiting
  • they can be hijacked by others who claim the label but don't follow the 'definition'
  • they can become stigmatised due to a minority without that reflecting reality for the majority

Yes, evangelicals would say that it is simply an understanding of what it means to be a Christian - but you are over-simplifying - most evangelicals will use that term as a shorthand, but will say that they are a Christian first and foremost. Equally, the link you provide talks about tenets which are central to belief - that doesn't prohibit other Christians from having different weighting to their focus, so it is not excluding others from being Christians. In fact by definition, evangelicals with a central focus on scriptures will take the Bible as guide as to how to follow Christ, not put in place artificial labels made by mankind, and there we will find that the focus is on Christ, a daily personal relationship with God through Jesus etc - not on setting up division and labels and groupings.

so labels can be good or bad - but I think you are hinting at / implying much more, because on the surface what you say doesn't make sense, if evangelicals focus on God and the Bible etc. - how is that a man-made bubble or a belief system which is a precarious house of cards collapsing under scrutiny?

  • no sign of it collapsing - Christianity is rising worldwide, and even in the UK where traditional CofE is in decline, the evangelical church's growth means that overall Christianity is increasing.
  • it isn't a bubble - it is core Christianity as laid out in the Bible, how do you define that as a bubble?
  • as for ignorance - not really - there is a higher % of normal church members in evangelical churches doing theological training than in any other church, and the central priority of scriptures tends to mean that generally those same churches will be providing strong scriptural, theologically sound sermons and teaching on Sundays and through the week - where many other churches now deliver little more than a homily.

I think that having started this thread and having made accusations about evangelical Christianity, perhaps it would be helpful if you actually substantiated some of what you say - it is easy to throw out snippets and be negative and sound absolute, but with no substance behind what you say, perhaps you could provide some evidence to back up why you believe evangelical Christianity to be so flawed / so much a bubble / so ignorant...

there is no disagreement that some individuals can be flawed - so let us put that to one side for now as they do not define the underlying approach to how we read and understand the Bible and follow Jesus - you seem to have strong issues with anyone calling themselves an evangelical, with no apparent basis for those comments...

clashok · 15/09/2023 15:55

no sign of it collapsing - Christianity is rising worldwide, and even in the UK where traditional CofE is in decline, the evangelical church's growth means that overall Christianity is increasing.

You've said this twice now with nothing to back it up. The census data from Wales, England and NI would suggest the opposite, so are you saying there's been an explosion of Christianity in Scotland we're about to hear about?

harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:27

@akkakk

I think that having started this thread and having made accusations about evangelical Christianity, perhaps it would be helpful if you actually substantiated some of what you say

I had thought I was substantiating what I was saying... What do you think need's substantiating further and I will endeavour to do so.

OP posts:
harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:29

clashok · 15/09/2023 15:55

no sign of it collapsing - Christianity is rising worldwide, and even in the UK where traditional CofE is in decline, the evangelical church's growth means that overall Christianity is increasing.

You've said this twice now with nothing to back it up. The census data from Wales, England and NI would suggest the opposite, so are you saying there's been an explosion of Christianity in Scotland we're about to hear about?

In fairness to @akkakk it likely is growing worldwide. It's shrinking in the West, for sure.

OP posts:
harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:31

@Thegreatestoftheseislove

I agree that prima facie it sound preposterous, however that reduced statement/idea is excluding the full picture - the one which involves God. How amazing is it that the millions of folk who do believe it are not under psychiatric treatment, despite some unbelievers deeming they should be ... maybe it's a God-thing.

Millions of Japanese soldiers willingly died for their God-Emperor in WWII... How amazing so many did! By your logic that may be a God-thing too!

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 15/09/2023 16:34

Let them get on with it. If that isn't not what you believe then fine, but if they believe that it's up to them. Stop being a busybody.

kiwiandcherries · 15/09/2023 16:41

Cherryana · 14/09/2023 07:19

Yes I agree with your statement.

Even the most liberal churches have at their heart a patriarchy (hierarchy) and an orthodoxy (right teaching/thinking).

With this at its heart the natural outcome is control in order to adhere.

So, In order to ensure adherence to the ‘right thinking’ there a number of overt and subliminal ways of encouraging group think and non-questioning eg you will find that the general language of liturgy, and songs reinforce passivity through their language.

You also get the main leader who invariably has more experience of hearing from God to enshrine their status as special and other. And unquestionable.

’Right thinking’ also means wrong thinking needs to be discouraged. This can be through social exclusion if you don’t fit or any real doubts glossed over with deflection (God is in control, faith over fear etc).

It is impossible to get away from this as it is enmeshed in the way it has developed over time.

Actually, although what you say is unfortunately true for the majority of churches, there are some around who have seen the error of the systems and have come away from the traditional structures. No main leader, and a sense of all being on the journey together, seeking to work out what faith is all about and valuing each person's contribution and trying to convey a more accurate representation of what God is like - loving, not condemning.

clashok · 15/09/2023 16:47

harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:29

In fairness to @akkakk it likely is growing worldwide. It's shrinking in the West, for sure.

The poster specifies the UK though.

clashok · 15/09/2023 16:48

Viviennemary · 15/09/2023 16:34

Let them get on with it. If that isn't not what you believe then fine, but if they believe that it's up to them. Stop being a busybody.

Criticising isn't being a busybody.

akkakk · 15/09/2023 16:49

clashok · 15/09/2023 15:55

no sign of it collapsing - Christianity is rising worldwide, and even in the UK where traditional CofE is in decline, the evangelical church's growth means that overall Christianity is increasing.

You've said this twice now with nothing to back it up. The census data from Wales, England and NI would suggest the opposite, so are you saying there's been an explosion of Christianity in Scotland we're about to hear about?

there are three different counts for churches / Christians in the UK:

  • those who call themselves Christians (often by default) e.g. on a census form
  • absolute numbers who attend church during a year
  • Christians / regular attendees of church
The first is a generic count and probably now quite inaccurate - there are a lot of people who in absence of defining themselves in any other way will put Christian on a form. The second will include all those who might come to a wedding / baptism / funeral / Easter / Christmas / etc. even though they might not self-define as being a Christian, they might still be counted in attendance at some point. The third is a more accurate count of those who are regular church goers - though it is still a formulaic approach.

Noticeable trends:

  • large decrease in the first category - mainly that society has changed and it is socially acceptable to define yourself in many ways, less pressure to be seen to conform to a traditional Christian heritage norm in the UK = rapid decline of this number
  • the nominal church decline we see - is predominantly driven by that above figure - it covers up different changes taking place within individual churches
  • Almost all churches set up pre 1900 are in decline (2 exceptions)
  • All churches set up post 1900 are in growth
  • on a balance of churchmanship, liberal churches are in decline, and evangelical churches are in growth (with a couple of exceptions)
  • on a balance of progressive ideology (looking at those who prioritise human reason and feeling over God's revelation and word) all progressive ideology churches are in decline and the majority of those opposed (all with a few exceptions) are in growth.

The general agreement within churches is that absolute numbers are decreasing, but there is an overall growth in Christians v. nominal Christians / church attendees.

Even where there is a church in numerical decline (e.g. the CofE) there are sections within that are in growth, and this again follows the same pattern above, so in the CofE the liberal / progressive ideology churches are in decline whereas the evangelical section is in growth, sometimes considerable - the best known example being HTB or Holy Trinity Brompton - one church based in London has planted from HTB (or from subsequent plants) into the HTB network and is now 77 churches (church plants are where groups from a growing church set up a new church or move to a failing church to restart / create a church in that area... They are also the initiators of Alpha - the phenomenally popular course for those wanting to understand more about God / Bible / Church etc. with more than 24 million people having taken the course in 100+ countries / 100+ languages (the course has i fact been run by many denominations of church).

There is a basic belief in the church that those who become Christians do so due to the work of the Holy Spirit - i.e. that God is involved, so there are interesting questions being asked in churches at the moment about the above stats and why it might be that some churches are being 'blessed' by God and others seem to not be so blessed...

some useful links...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTB_network
https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/15/growth-decline-and-extinction-of-uk-churches/
https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/20/uk_church_decline_and_progressive_ideology/

there are some interesting worldwide stats here:
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2023/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2023.pdf
which shows breakdown for churches - but also some comparison against other religions...

HTB network - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTB_network

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