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Philosophy/religion

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Aren't all evangelical churches spiritually abusive?

186 replies

harerunner · 14/09/2023 06:24

....by their very nature!

Their whole message... heaven if you believe and obey, everlasting hell and torment if you dare not to, is surely spiritually abusive in itself. It's not just a pastor or two, it's the whole system!

OP posts:
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clashok · 15/09/2023 17:05

akkakk · 15/09/2023 16:49

there are three different counts for churches / Christians in the UK:

  • those who call themselves Christians (often by default) e.g. on a census form
  • absolute numbers who attend church during a year
  • Christians / regular attendees of church
The first is a generic count and probably now quite inaccurate - there are a lot of people who in absence of defining themselves in any other way will put Christian on a form. The second will include all those who might come to a wedding / baptism / funeral / Easter / Christmas / etc. even though they might not self-define as being a Christian, they might still be counted in attendance at some point. The third is a more accurate count of those who are regular church goers - though it is still a formulaic approach.

Noticeable trends:

  • large decrease in the first category - mainly that society has changed and it is socially acceptable to define yourself in many ways, less pressure to be seen to conform to a traditional Christian heritage norm in the UK = rapid decline of this number
  • the nominal church decline we see - is predominantly driven by that above figure - it covers up different changes taking place within individual churches
  • Almost all churches set up pre 1900 are in decline (2 exceptions)
  • All churches set up post 1900 are in growth
  • on a balance of churchmanship, liberal churches are in decline, and evangelical churches are in growth (with a couple of exceptions)
  • on a balance of progressive ideology (looking at those who prioritise human reason and feeling over God's revelation and word) all progressive ideology churches are in decline and the majority of those opposed (all with a few exceptions) are in growth.

The general agreement within churches is that absolute numbers are decreasing, but there is an overall growth in Christians v. nominal Christians / church attendees.

Even where there is a church in numerical decline (e.g. the CofE) there are sections within that are in growth, and this again follows the same pattern above, so in the CofE the liberal / progressive ideology churches are in decline whereas the evangelical section is in growth, sometimes considerable - the best known example being HTB or Holy Trinity Brompton - one church based in London has planted from HTB (or from subsequent plants) into the HTB network and is now 77 churches (church plants are where groups from a growing church set up a new church or move to a failing church to restart / create a church in that area... They are also the initiators of Alpha - the phenomenally popular course for those wanting to understand more about God / Bible / Church etc. with more than 24 million people having taken the course in 100+ countries / 100+ languages (the course has i fact been run by many denominations of church).

There is a basic belief in the church that those who become Christians do so due to the work of the Holy Spirit - i.e. that God is involved, so there are interesting questions being asked in churches at the moment about the above stats and why it might be that some churches are being 'blessed' by God and others seem to not be so blessed...

some useful links...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTB_network
https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/15/growth-decline-and-extinction-of-uk-churches/
https://churchmodel.org.uk/2022/05/20/uk_church_decline_and_progressive_ideology/

there are some interesting worldwide stats here:
https://www.gordonconwell.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2023/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2023.pdf
which shows breakdown for churches - but also some comparison against other religions...

So what you're saying is that people calling themselves Christian and going to Church either occasionally or reguarly are on the decline, but you think Christianity is growing because (according to a Christian website) some denominations are growing, and since they mostly aren't the "progressive" ones that carry out same-sex marriages they're the only ones you think count?

harerunner · 15/09/2023 17:08

Viviennemary · 15/09/2023 16:34

Let them get on with it. If that isn't not what you believe then fine, but if they believe that it's up to them. Stop being a busybody.

Notwithstanding the discussion on whether it is abusive or not in this instance, many,
many people have been unnecessarily damaged as a result of people ignoring the abuse of others under the guise of "it's none of my business".

If your neighbour was sexually abusing their child, would say to yourself "shame, but i'm not a busybody, so I'll just let them crack on."?

OP posts:
akkakk · 15/09/2023 17:20

harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:27

@akkakk

I think that having started this thread and having made accusations about evangelical Christianity, perhaps it would be helpful if you actually substantiated some of what you say

I had thought I was substantiating what I was saying... What do you think need's substantiating further and I will endeavour to do so.

you claim that the whole evangelical church is abusive ('I believe that evangelical churches are spiritually abusive at their core')
you say that it is a bubble
you say that all its members are ignorant
you say that it is a pack of cards about to collapse
you say that your experience has led you to view evangelical christianity as fundamentally flawed (how) and unhealthy (how)

you say:
"experience that has led me to view evangelical Christianity as fundamentally flawed and unhealthy on many levels, and damaged me and many, many people."

but also:
"My journey hasn't been personally impacted by abuse, at least nothing of a direct or acute nature, but more a growing sense that Christianity as a belief system is simply not credible"

I don't write these replies to personally attack you - I hear that you have had a very negative experience and that saddens me - that is not what church / Christianity is about, however I do think that it is fair to challenge for accuracy, because the reality seems to be that millions of people have chosen to follow Jesus, and to do so in a biblical / evangelical way - while there are some current stories about a couple of leaders who have shown abusive leadership, that is not the experience of the vast majority...

I would be interested to see the evidence underpinning these comments - you chose to start this thread on a throw-away comment, it would be helpful to have it substantiated

akkakk · 15/09/2023 17:29

clashok · 15/09/2023 17:05

So what you're saying is that people calling themselves Christian and going to Church either occasionally or reguarly are on the decline, but you think Christianity is growing because (according to a Christian website) some denominations are growing, and since they mostly aren't the "progressive" ones that carry out same-sex marriages they're the only ones you think count?

I am not saying anything - I quote others - the statistics are known figures collected through established methodologies and use established mathematical / statistical processes to analyse them - if that is not enough for you then it might be challenging to find anything more than the actual figures underpinning the discussion!

Yes churchmodel.org.uk is a website run by a Christian - but I am not aware that the belief of the person is deemed to influence the statistical modelling - by all means argue the methodology, but that is an irrelevance - feel free, if you disagree, to take the underlying figures and do your own statistical modelling - I would be interested to see the results you get

and it is not about which types of church count or otherwise - but the underlying figures - the overall attendance is in decline, but as the starting figures for that included large parts of the population who were social Christians (go to church not because they have a personal faith but because society somehow expects it) - those people are a false flag in terms of analysing the actual numbers of believing Christians - the general acceptance across all church denominations is that those numbers are increasing while overall numbers decrease... the reality is that they have a stronger statistical correlation with the evangelical / non-progressive churches than with the liberal progressive ones...

clashok · 15/09/2023 18:05

akkakk · 15/09/2023 17:29

I am not saying anything - I quote others - the statistics are known figures collected through established methodologies and use established mathematical / statistical processes to analyse them - if that is not enough for you then it might be challenging to find anything more than the actual figures underpinning the discussion!

Yes churchmodel.org.uk is a website run by a Christian - but I am not aware that the belief of the person is deemed to influence the statistical modelling - by all means argue the methodology, but that is an irrelevance - feel free, if you disagree, to take the underlying figures and do your own statistical modelling - I would be interested to see the results you get

and it is not about which types of church count or otherwise - but the underlying figures - the overall attendance is in decline, but as the starting figures for that included large parts of the population who were social Christians (go to church not because they have a personal faith but because society somehow expects it) - those people are a false flag in terms of analysing the actual numbers of believing Christians - the general acceptance across all church denominations is that those numbers are increasing while overall numbers decrease... the reality is that they have a stronger statistical correlation with the evangelical / non-progressive churches than with the liberal progressive ones...

Can you point out the part of those links that state that Christianity in the UK is growing? I can't find it. One opens with "Christianity is on the decline in the UK" and the other just seems to be trying to prove that same-sex marriage is destroying certain Churches.

and it is not about which types of church count or otherwise - but the underlying figures - the overall attendance is in decline, but as the starting figures for that included large parts of the population who were social Christians (go to church not because they have a personal faith but because society somehow expects it) - those people are a false flag in terms of analysing the actual numbers of believing Christians - the general acceptance across all church denominations is that those numbers are increasing while overall numbers decrease... the reality is that they have a stronger statistical correlation with the evangelical / non-progressive churches than with the liberal progressive ones.

It's all a bit no true scotsman to me. "Yes Christianity is officially decreasing, but they weren't real Christians."

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 15/09/2023 21:05

harerunner · 15/09/2023 16:31

@Thegreatestoftheseislove

I agree that prima facie it sound preposterous, however that reduced statement/idea is excluding the full picture - the one which involves God. How amazing is it that the millions of folk who do believe it are not under psychiatric treatment, despite some unbelievers deeming they should be ... maybe it's a God-thing.

Millions of Japanese soldiers willingly died for their God-Emperor in WWII... How amazing so many did! By your logic that may be a God-thing too!

As you raised the subject, I was merely observing that the millions of people who do believe in the agreed preposterous idea of God becoming man, being born to a virgin, being crucified, resurrected and is now alive, are not undergoing psychiatric treatment for their beliefs ... I see that God is involved in that. Even some psychiatrists are Christians.

Not getting your straw-man connection at all @harerunner. A 'God-Emperor' in WW11 is not in any way connected to Jesus or leading a Christian life. Just as an aside, I'm pretty certain, although have no evidence to prove it, that millions of soldiers who have died in any ego-driven man-made wars have not done so willingly. That is certainly not a God-thing - God, being the Christian/Judaic God of this particular topic and not just any old god

As I've said previously, I am sad that you feel you have been damaged by people and it is reasonable for you to be angry with them.

@akkakk is speaking much wisdom on the opening topic.

Catinabeanbag · 15/09/2023 21:27

I find evangelical churches will generally have a statement of 'beliefs / values' on their website which often includes things such as:

  • we've all fallen short of God's standards / are sinners in need of redemption
  • Jesus' sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for our sins / substitued himself in our place / and it's only through this that we can be right with God
  • the Bible is the inspired / inerrant word of God and the final authority on all matters
  • God created us man and woman and the only 'right' relationship is marriage between and man and woman (or words to that effect)

It's all about the certainty again. Certainty that their way of reading & interpreting the bible is the 'right' way. Talking about 'bibically sound' preaching, for example. The church I go to has 'biblically sound' preaching, but doesn't interpret everything in the same way the evangelicals would.
Their theology is usually penal or substitutonary antonement - Jesus died instead of us or 'for us' as some sort of ransome or payment for our sins.

I wonder if evangelical churches are growing in this day and age because of the 'certainty' they offer. In a world which is so chaotic, and so 'anything goes', when it comes to big questions in life about suffering, or meaning, or the 'why' of things, to have somewhere where people can offer (seemingly) clear answers, everything cut and dried... must be attractive.

justgotosleepffs · 16/09/2023 08:16

I dont think believing in heaven and hell means they are spiritually abusive.

Definitely evangelical churches believe in heaven (where God is) and hell (where Gos isn't). I guess it would be spiritually abusive if they then said "the "only way to get to heaven is to go to church every week, do everything we say and give us all your money". But they dont do that.

The evangelical message would be that the only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. Some might say that's bullying, but that doesnt really make sense: no one is forcing you to believe in Jesus, because no one is forcing you to believe in hell in the first place.

Imagine if you encounter a woman who tells you that the government is going to poison the water supply next week and the only antidote is to drink a cup of cod liver oil every morning. You either believe her about the government and drink the cod liver oil, or you dismiss her as crazy and go on with your life. It would make no sense to say "well I believe you about the poison in the water, but I don't believe you about the cod liver oil". Nor would it make sense to get angry and say "how dare you tell me to drink cod liver oil".

Evangelical Christians believe that humanity needs saving, and Jesus is the salvation. You can believe them on both counts or on neither, but it doesn't make much sense to believe the first half and not the second.

ElonGates666 · 18/09/2023 16:09

I'm not sure how Biblical the belief in heaven and hell is. 2,000 years ago Jewish people didn't believe in a soul. That was more a Greek or and Egyptian thing. Sadducees didn't believe in life after death. Pharisees believed that when you're dead you're dead but at some time in the future there would be a resurrection where the dead would come back to life and emerge from their tombs. Then there would be judgement and some people killed.

The earliest Christians who were Jews would have followed the Pharisee belief, but Greek thought was creeping in. In the Gospel of Luke there are two references to a heaven or hell with the existence of a soul that could continue.

clashok · 19/09/2023 10:53

ElonGates666 · 18/09/2023 16:09

I'm not sure how Biblical the belief in heaven and hell is. 2,000 years ago Jewish people didn't believe in a soul. That was more a Greek or and Egyptian thing. Sadducees didn't believe in life after death. Pharisees believed that when you're dead you're dead but at some time in the future there would be a resurrection where the dead would come back to life and emerge from their tombs. Then there would be judgement and some people killed.

The earliest Christians who were Jews would have followed the Pharisee belief, but Greek thought was creeping in. In the Gospel of Luke there are two references to a heaven or hell with the existence of a soul that could continue.

I think the idea of an eternal punishment for whatever group they don't like appeals to a lot of people.

GalaApples · 19/09/2023 12:45

OP I am sorry for your bad experiences with evangelical churches. Earlier this year I became aware of some of the basic tenets of belief of many evangelicals, and experienced real shock that had a bad impact on me both emotionally and physically because of the stress it caused, that so many are taught them and believe them. This was because the beliefs in question - about male superiority and female subordination - were so at odds with my own beliefs. I was brought up in the CofE's liberal tradition, but always thought for myself. Fairness, justice and equality are the basics of goodness to me.
Early on I realised that the bible was totally dense and confusing, contradictory, inconsistent and hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God, which I believed and still do, that Jesus is. Evangelicals tend to stress the importance of the bible including the
Old Testament as the "inerrant" word of God, which leads them into all kinds of hardline, unloving prescriptions and restrictions and imo, intolerance.

The very fact of Jesus as the reason for being Christian tends to get lost among the biblical prescriptions and proscriptions (most of which are man-made rules anyway)
.

However Jesus was the complete opposite of these things, being Love itself and truly from and of God. I decided only to follow his example and teachings, from the gospels, rather than the bible as a whole. Much simpler, but losing nothing of spiritual importance. Having a personal relationship with Jesus is the most important thing. For some it may lead to a church with fellowship of like-minded others, for others not. But he is what matters.
All we need is Love, and Jesus is the most perfect expression of love. If we just focus on Jesus who was love incarnate, and follow him, that is all that is needed. I feel the pain in your posts, and hope for better for you.

clashok · 19/09/2023 13:28

GalaApples · 19/09/2023 12:45

OP I am sorry for your bad experiences with evangelical churches. Earlier this year I became aware of some of the basic tenets of belief of many evangelicals, and experienced real shock that had a bad impact on me both emotionally and physically because of the stress it caused, that so many are taught them and believe them. This was because the beliefs in question - about male superiority and female subordination - were so at odds with my own beliefs. I was brought up in the CofE's liberal tradition, but always thought for myself. Fairness, justice and equality are the basics of goodness to me.
Early on I realised that the bible was totally dense and confusing, contradictory, inconsistent and hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God, which I believed and still do, that Jesus is. Evangelicals tend to stress the importance of the bible including the
Old Testament as the "inerrant" word of God, which leads them into all kinds of hardline, unloving prescriptions and restrictions and imo, intolerance.

The very fact of Jesus as the reason for being Christian tends to get lost among the biblical prescriptions and proscriptions (most of which are man-made rules anyway)
.

However Jesus was the complete opposite of these things, being Love itself and truly from and of God. I decided only to follow his example and teachings, from the gospels, rather than the bible as a whole. Much simpler, but losing nothing of spiritual importance. Having a personal relationship with Jesus is the most important thing. For some it may lead to a church with fellowship of like-minded others, for others not. But he is what matters.
All we need is Love, and Jesus is the most perfect expression of love. If we just focus on Jesus who was love incarnate, and follow him, that is all that is needed. I feel the pain in your posts, and hope for better for you.

Given OP was a Christian but isn't any more, I'm not sure telling her she just needs to love Jesus or whatever is helpful.

akkakk · 20/09/2023 09:59

@ElonGates666
The belief in life / God before and after earth is core biblical belief - from the beginning of John's Gospel to Genesis we are told that God existed pre-earth, and there is plenty within Jesus' teachings through to Revelation on post-earth.

In the Old Testament (same as Jewish scriptures) there is reference to e.g. prophets being taken up to be with God, so Jews will have been very familiar with the concept from an early time...

how we see the modern definition of Heaven and Hell - well that seems to vary, so some will have a biblical view and others not.

@GalaApples
"All we need is Love, and Jesus is the most perfect expression of love. If we just focus on Jesus who was love incarnate, and follow him, that is all that is needed."

Sorry - that really is not the Bible in summary. The clever thing about that philosophy (and it is not an uncommon one) is that of course it is accurate that Jesus talked about the new commandments and love - for God and for one another, but the reductionist view loses all the detail and subtlety inherent in Jesus's teachings.

"I decided only to follow his example and teachings, from the gospels, rather than the bible as a whole. Much simpler, but losing nothing of spiritual importance."

We are told very clearly that all God's word is God inspired / breathed and that we are not to add to or remove from it - that means that we need the Old Testament, we need the epistles, we need the difficult books such as Revelations - they are all a part of God's word for us - to pick the bits you like and which are easy to follow is not to follow Jesus / God, but to build your own image of God and follow that.

I can understand why it is tempting, and especially in a world of so many things which are fundamentally wrong and broken there is a temptation to focus only on love as a counterpoint - but that is not what Jesus tells us to do.

As mentioned above - it can be tricky, but we should all look to be discerning when we come across any form of organisation, such as a church, and continually hold up its teachings to the bible for clarity and accuracy - if we find that the teachings don't sit comfortably alongside what the bible tells us, then it is possible that there is an issue there...

"Early on I realised that the bible was totally dense and confusing, contradictory, inconsistent and hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God, which I believed and still do, that Jesus is. Evangelicals tend to stress the importance of the bible including the Old Testament as the "inerrant" word of God, which leads them into all kinds of hardline, unloving prescriptions and restrictions and imo, intolerance. The very fact of Jesus as the reason for being Christian tends to get lost among the biblical prescriptions and proscriptions (most of which are man-made rules anyway)"

The Bible isn't dense and confusing - it is wonderfully complex and detailed, and so much so that a life time of study will still leave you wanting to discover more, it is not contradictory, inconsistent or hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God - the whole consistent theme of the Bible is an amazing creator God who loves his people so much that he keeps on trying to find ways to stay in relationship with them as they continually disobey / wander off away from God - so much so that he sends his own son to die so that we can have that relationship. Even if you were to simply compare the Christian God against all Gods from all religions, there isn't a single other God who offers redemption and salvation completely and totally free - not sure how you could invent a more loving God! As for an equitable God - what is more equitable than a God so perfect that imperfection can't be tolerated, so he sends his son to die to allow the imperfect to be with Him? A God who has absolute clarity about how to be in relationship with Him and then instead of making people jump through hoops, at personal cost makes that door wide open and available to absolutely everyone - free of charge or cost. How much more equitable can you be than to provide eternity with God free of charge, but also to provide absolute clarity that those who choose otherwise will in complete fairness get what they want - eternity without Him.

No evangelicals I know have hardline or unloving prescriptions / restrictions or intolerance - they simply go to the bible to see what God's perspective / instruction might be and teach that - as such they are not man-made rules. If you are getting hit with a whole load of man made rules, then (back to the comment above) you need to be challenging those with reference to the bible.

And finally - Jesus isn't really the reason for being Christian... The reason for being Christian is to acknowledge the triune God (father, son, Holy Spirit) as the creator who made us to be in relationship with Him - a relationship which collapses through sin - historic and individual - and where Jesus dying for us becomes the way in which that relationship can be restored. Jesus's role within the trinity is varied, from being intrinsically involved in the creation (John 1) to being the living embodiment of God the Father (if you know me you know the father), to being the sacrificial lamb who dies for us to allow that relationship to be rebuilt, to being our advocate in Heaven at judgement. What Jesus isn't is the whole story in isolation of God the father / Holy Spirit.

diamondbacks · 20/09/2023 12:39

@akkakk

The Bible isn't dense and confusing - it is wonderfully complex and detailed, and so much so that a life time of study will still leave you wanting to discover more, it is not contradictory, inconsistent or hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God - the whole consistent theme of the Bible is an amazing creator God who loves his people so much that he keeps on trying to find ways to stay in relationship with them as they continually disobey / wander off away from God - so much so that he sends his own son to die so that we can have that relationship. Even if you were to simply compare the Christian God against all Gods from all religions, there isn't a single other God who offers redemption and salvation completely and totally free - not sure how you could invent a more loving God! As for an equitable God - what is more equitable than a God so perfect that imperfection can't be tolerated, so he sends his son to die to allow the imperfect to be with Him? A God who has absolute clarity about how to be in relationship with Him and then instead of making people jump through hoops, at personal cost makes that door wide open and available to absolutely everyone - free of charge or cost. How much more equitable can you be than to provide eternity with God free of charge, but also to provide absolute clarity that those who choose otherwise will in complete fairness get what they want - eternity without Him

Please only speak for yourself, just because don't find the bible dense or confusing or inconsistent does not been everybody does. and I doubt you are familiar with all religions that you can say Christianity is the only one that offers those things.

Your opinions are not facts.

akkakk · 20/09/2023 12:54

diamondbacks · 20/09/2023 12:39

@akkakk

The Bible isn't dense and confusing - it is wonderfully complex and detailed, and so much so that a life time of study will still leave you wanting to discover more, it is not contradictory, inconsistent or hard to reconcile with a loving and equitable God - the whole consistent theme of the Bible is an amazing creator God who loves his people so much that he keeps on trying to find ways to stay in relationship with them as they continually disobey / wander off away from God - so much so that he sends his own son to die so that we can have that relationship. Even if you were to simply compare the Christian God against all Gods from all religions, there isn't a single other God who offers redemption and salvation completely and totally free - not sure how you could invent a more loving God! As for an equitable God - what is more equitable than a God so perfect that imperfection can't be tolerated, so he sends his son to die to allow the imperfect to be with Him? A God who has absolute clarity about how to be in relationship with Him and then instead of making people jump through hoops, at personal cost makes that door wide open and available to absolutely everyone - free of charge or cost. How much more equitable can you be than to provide eternity with God free of charge, but also to provide absolute clarity that those who choose otherwise will in complete fairness get what they want - eternity without Him

Please only speak for yourself, just because don't find the bible dense or confusing or inconsistent does not been everybody does. and I doubt you are familiar with all religions that you can say Christianity is the only one that offers those things.

Your opinions are not facts.

no - it is fact

if you know of any other religion where God provides eternal salvation simply through repentance and accepting that God has made the payment for their sin then I would be fascinated to know

it is what makes Christianity unique - all other religions are human constructed sets of rules you have to follow to get to the end goal - Christianity is redemption through the cross - it is unique.

clashok · 20/09/2023 13:18

akkakk · 20/09/2023 12:54

no - it is fact

if you know of any other religion where God provides eternal salvation simply through repentance and accepting that God has made the payment for their sin then I would be fascinated to know

it is what makes Christianity unique - all other religions are human constructed sets of rules you have to follow to get to the end goal - Christianity is redemption through the cross - it is unique.

You are the one making the claim. About every single religion on the word, of which there are thousands if not millions.

Again your opinion is not fact. If other people have a different perspective or experience or opinion on the bible or on evangelism who the fuck do you think you are to call them wrong?

akkakk · 20/09/2023 14:00

clashok · 20/09/2023 13:18

You are the one making the claim. About every single religion on the word, of which there are thousands if not millions.

Again your opinion is not fact. If other people have a different perspective or experience or opinion on the bible or on evangelism who the fuck do you think you are to call them wrong?

lovely - happy to be proved wrong - just list the one or many other religions where there is the same creator God creating the world, and where being with God (heaven or other terms welcomed) comes from a free gift given by God and literally no other steps needed other than to repent and accept it - where God is the one who pays the price to allow us all access to being with him for eternity etc. There is no other, but of course am happy to be proven wrong...

though perhaps a little politer? no need to swear - if you think that I am wrong, use evidence, demonstrate it - but swearing at someone anonymous through the internet is a little bit OTT...

clashok · 20/09/2023 15:25

akkakk · 20/09/2023 14:00

lovely - happy to be proved wrong - just list the one or many other religions where there is the same creator God creating the world, and where being with God (heaven or other terms welcomed) comes from a free gift given by God and literally no other steps needed other than to repent and accept it - where God is the one who pays the price to allow us all access to being with him for eternity etc. There is no other, but of course am happy to be proven wrong...

though perhaps a little politer? no need to swear - if you think that I am wrong, use evidence, demonstrate it - but swearing at someone anonymous through the internet is a little bit OTT...

Use evidence, like you do? You can't prove that Christianity is the only religion that does those things, or that it's on the rise in the UK as you kept saying earlier. And passing off your opinion as fact and calling other people's experience and perspectives wrong isn't very fucking polite.

akkakk · 20/09/2023 15:30

clashok · 20/09/2023 15:25

Use evidence, like you do? You can't prove that Christianity is the only religion that does those things, or that it's on the rise in the UK as you kept saying earlier. And passing off your opinion as fact and calling other people's experience and perspectives wrong isn't very fucking polite.

I am not sure that you are doing a terribly good job of proving those statements wrong - surely if I am that wrong it will be easy for you to disprove it?

Anyway, happy to have discussions with people who are civil and actually want a discussion, but not those who think that swearing at others somehow replaces civilised discussion - I hope that you come to find what you are looking for in life.

clashok · 20/09/2023 15:45

akkakk · 20/09/2023 15:30

I am not sure that you are doing a terribly good job of proving those statements wrong - surely if I am that wrong it will be easy for you to disprove it?

Anyway, happy to have discussions with people who are civil and actually want a discussion, but not those who think that swearing at others somehow replaces civilised discussion - I hope that you come to find what you are looking for in life.

Of course it's not easy to disprove. I'm not familiar with every single religion and neither are you. But I'm not the one making outlandish claims and backing up simply by saying "it is a fact".

And if you don't like swearing, them maybe mumsnet isn't the fucking place for you.

Cherryana · 20/09/2023 21:56

The bible is not a book but a collection of books that has gone through it’s own editing process.

A lot of blind faith gets put into the hands and minds of the men who made up the council of Hippo in 397 AD (for the order of the books) and the council of Nicaea (for the creed).

What even rudimentary biblical scholarship opens the doors to is the unavoidable bias and editing that has happened in order to create ‘the word of God’.

However, It is possible to appreciate the universal truths presented in it - without necessarily, believing in the details of the stories.

Catinabeanbag · 20/09/2023 22:07

Quite. Big picture rather than small details. And the circular argument that the Bible is God breathed and useful for all things.... because the Bible says so.

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 21/09/2023 10:49

clashok · 20/09/2023 15:45

Of course it's not easy to disprove. I'm not familiar with every single religion and neither are you. But I'm not the one making outlandish claims and backing up simply by saying "it is a fact".

And if you don't like swearing, them maybe mumsnet isn't the fucking place for you.

Just wondering @clashok are you sounding so aggressive and angry because you have made claims that you are not able to substantiate? @akkakk is correct that "Christianity is redemption through the Cross - it is unique." But we've gone off the subject of the opening post.

clashok · 21/09/2023 11:15

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 21/09/2023 10:49

Just wondering @clashok are you sounding so aggressive and angry because you have made claims that you are not able to substantiate? @akkakk is correct that "Christianity is redemption through the Cross - it is unique." But we've gone off the subject of the opening post.

Which claims have I made?

Unless you are familiar with the thousands of religions in the world you cant say that for certain.

Maatandosiris · 21/09/2023 13:29

akkakk · 20/09/2023 14:00

lovely - happy to be proved wrong - just list the one or many other religions where there is the same creator God creating the world, and where being with God (heaven or other terms welcomed) comes from a free gift given by God and literally no other steps needed other than to repent and accept it - where God is the one who pays the price to allow us all access to being with him for eternity etc. There is no other, but of course am happy to be proven wrong...

though perhaps a little politer? no need to swear - if you think that I am wrong, use evidence, demonstrate it - but swearing at someone anonymous through the internet is a little bit OTT...

I think you have mixed up the narrative of the story with its purpose. We will lay aside arguments regarding who is the creator in Genesis, and discussions around whether YHVH is the same as the Elohim.

I think what you are saying is are there and other religions which allow people to be reunited with source, or an afterlife. I would argue that the majority of Christianity requires steps to be taken to get into “heaven”. This, has differed between different denominations of course and different eras whether the buying of indulgences, prayers (esp in November), the refraining from certain behaviours, monetary gifts etc (all designed to facilitate entry into heaven)

I would actually say Neoplatonic thought might offer something closer to what you are describing in terms of automatic unity with source.

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