Soul Survivor thread 2

[BadSkiingMum]

This is a thread for anyone following the events at Soul Survivor or wishing to discuss their own experiences or the experiences of their loved ones within evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal religious spaces.

@pickledandpuzzled I disagree, I think when it comes to evangelical culture, especially charismatic evangelical culture, the gathering IS the problem. Safeguarding fails time and time again in that culture because the leaders think it's beneath them to care about this stuff, and they use it as an opportunity to abuse.

None of this stuff happens by accident. It's not "a few bad apples". Evangelical Christianity is absolutely awash with abuse that stays hidden for decades because of arrogant, power-hungry men who know they can get away with it. It's rotten to the core, far more so than any of the other things you mention.

That’s appalling. I find it hard to process because for me it’s all separate. Theology background, so it’s more about the practices than the actual groups- I’ve not been around many different groups, and haven’t seen poor behaviour.

I don’t see individual evangelical and charismatic Christians as the issue, or charismatic / evangelical Christianity.

I’m enraged by the MP stuff because this was within the framework of the CofE and I know how hard the CofE is working on safeguarding.

There can be issues with cliques and croneys- I’ve seen that and judged it.

I was on teams at new wine for years, and saw a bit of clique and croney stuff. I’d like to think I’d have recognised it if the charm was turned on me. Not sure. I saw absolute, thorough training and good practice, and safeguarding steps taken on many an occasion.

I’m just so angry about the failure around Mike Pilavachi. It feels as though we no sooner finish an investigation, ramp up additional procedures, recognise something new (spiritual abuse has only been talked about in safeguarding for 10/15 years I’d say), then the light shines on some other bugger and hey presto off we go again!

@pickledandpuzzled Am I angry about Mike Pilavachi? Yes.

Am I surprised? No.

You will see charismatic evangelical Christians implicated in things like this over and over again. What we've seen so far is just the tip of the iceberg.

And however hard the Church of England has worked, there's constant failures down to the huge number of loopholes in all their processes. Look up Jonathan Fletcher and Emmanuel Wimbledon. It's horrifying - he was exploiting loopholes for years and abused loads of people, as well as covering up for the absolutely vile John Smyth.

This may be of interest https://www.anglicanfutures.org/post/that-s-just-mike-reflections-on-abuse-in-the-evangelical-anglican-context

I think there is also a God wouldn't let anything bad happen attitude. We trust in God/Jesus and he has our corner. Whatever your belief God needs help with safeguarding.

That’s an excellent article with really good links. Thank you.
@PrimitivePerson I didn’t intend to ignore your last post. I went to read up on the people you mentioned, and got distracted before I finished.

Wasn't there something around Pioneer /Gerald Coates too?

It is happening so often that we really do need to look at structures.

Ive often thought that the parish vicar/ church pastor model is ripe for abuse as it basically leaves you there to conduct things however you want in charge of your own little kingdom.

@LotsOfBalloons An enquiry into Pioneer was launched back in the summer. I contributed to it, I suffered badly at their hands.

The report is due out this month.

We’ve recently left a charismatic evangelical alliance church we were heavily involved in because of spiritual abuse. I’m not aware of anything sexual going on but safeguarding procedures and recommendations from 318 were constantly put down as excessive and not required because “we know them”. Final straw for me there, even after years of direct spiritual abuse.

The pastor was and still is a major problem. He gets away with so much because “oh that’s just X” - a phrase I’ve heard so many times from leadership team and trustees alike.

The culture was “we’ve got a good thing going here” large congregation, lots of youth and kids so God must be blessing it. But the message was clear - we’ve got it right and if you step away you’ll move out of the purposes of God and your children will rebel and suffer for it. I would shock you with the stories of what went on behind the scenes (again nothing sexual) and what happened to us.

So much of what Beth and Matt said is what we’ve experienced.

I don’t know the answers, but I will confidently say that time and time again people who want power and control make a beeline for church leadership. This is not exclusive to charismatic churches however, this has happened for centuries within the global church. The hype and music style of Chatismatic meetings has just made it accessible to the current generations who like a more modern expression and aren’t interested in hard pews in a cold building with a tiny organ as the only instrument.

Hello, I am just posting to bump up this thread as a few things have caused me to think about it recently, mainly watching 'Escaping Twin Flames' (Netflix) which is horrifying, but very interesting in seeing the inner workings of a 'high control' group cult.

The independent review by Fiona Scolding KC (commissioned by the Trustees of Soul Survivor Watford) is still in progress. According to the website the reviewers are still accepting testimony (the original deadline was extended) but, as the extension notice was issued in early July, it seems likely that the review process will be closing soon - perhaps due to report in the autumn?
https://www.soulsurvivorwatford.co.uk/review

@RandomButtons I am sorry to hear about what you experienced. Was some of the 'behind the scenes' stuff financial? I am quite interested in that angle too. That was perhaps the first 'sign' that something wasn't right with the church that my family member began attending.

@PrimitivePerson I will read your Pioneer thread now.

@BadSkiingMum It’s hugely disappointing that Soul Survivor Watford have made two internal staff appointments before the FS report is in. Just shows an enormous lack of judgment.

Not Soul surviour but I met with some friends who go to a C of E church I used to go to. The lay minister friend (65 amazing woman served for over 20 years) was told with the recent vicar she was "no longer needed" (he doesntlike women in leadership, gay people or apparently people spending time with non Christian friend unless to convert them) I was really sad

@LimesOfBronze
Is it that you feel there's a risk they may have appointed or even promoted someone who is implicated in the report?

You would think that the whole 'women in leadership' question had been resolved by now...

How they reconcile those antiquated views with a female monarch doing an outstanding job for nearly 70 years, I really do not know.

@BadSkiingMum I think it shows poor judgment to make some permanent decisions before they’ve been given a document which should hopefully help them discern their weaknesses, failings, and blind spots. I think there are far too many people on the staff team who’ve been there for such a long time for them to really be able to make the changes necessary.

I was shocked. Ive met the family (man with wife and kids probably in his early 40s). They're all young and good looking and I wrongly imagined would be living in this century.

Theyre very conservative evangelical "bible clearly says" but I didn't think there were many quite that extreme in the C of E...

Yes agree Limes. Having left that kind of bubble I can now see how strange it all was but I don't think you can see it when living it.

I just got home and was pretty cross to find an very emotionally manipulative little letter on my doormat, accompanied by a JW leaflet.

They were still on the road so I went out to speak to them and, with four of them gathered around, said that I was concerned about high control religious groups and that they didn't have to live like this if they wished to leave. They could contact a safeguarding hub, a women's refuge or look at websites like 'recovering from religion'.

The reaction was mostly bemusement but one woman wouldn't listen and just walked away. There was one man and three women. The man (in his fifties) was a smooth talker and completely unfazed.

I told them about my family member who had been lured into a religious organisation from a university campus and also said that said that I didn't believe that any group should be permitted to evangelise to or accept donations from anyone under the age of twenty-one.

I was horrified to see that they had a very young woman - perhaps barely twenty - out with them. She was very, very quiet and immediately followed the woman who walked away.

I was quite riled up so probably lost a bit of influence there, but just getting this off my chest. 😳😱😡😥

@BadSkiingMum I've been there with JWs as well - they're about as extreme as any religious group gets, and given the horrors of shunning, very few people are brave enough to get out.

Thankfully very few people fall for their BS these days, but it's an absolute tragedy when they do, and like you, I could weep for the young people trapped in that toxic environment.

Oh thanks for replying. I am still feeling a bit agitated and up-in-the-air from the encounter. Giving myself tea, Mumsnet and soothing jazz at the moment...

I think for some reason I always thought of them as slightly 'apart' from all the other groups, but having recently listened to an episode of I Was a Teenage Fundamentalist featuring an ex-JW, I now see them as exactly the same.

Shunning. What a way to behave! Not even murderers are prohibited from contact with friends and family, if they wish to visit them in prison.

I told the man that I had been listening to material about escaping from high control religious groups and he said that it could be a problem if you only listened to one-sided content and didn't take on other views!🤔

On a positive note, the encounter prompted me to dash off a quick A4 sheet of support links that I can hand out to any religious callers. I am sure it will find its way into the nearest bin as soon as it is spotted by the person in charge, but perhaps if someone sees it, even briefly, it plants a seed...

Would you care to share those resources? That's a really positive thing to do.

Shunning really is an appalling practice. There was a former JW in the church I attended in my teens. I didn't know him well, but he seemed like a lovely gentle and thoughtful guy. One day he stood at the front of church and told us why he decided to get out of the JWs and join a more moderate mainstream church. The punishment he suffered for it was brutal - he still lived in the same house as his wife and kids, and for years they'd literally acted like he wasn't there. They never even acknowledged his presence. He broke down in tears talking about it.

That left a really strong impression. That's absolutely unforgivable behaviour.

Oh thanks, it is a bit basic at the moment but more or less:

Recovering from Religion
ThirtyOneEight
GodLovesWomen

Citizen’s Advice
Women’s Aid

Plus a paragraph on how to contact local authority safeguarding.

Crucially, all in a nice big font so that someone could perhaps read it even if they couldn’t keep it.

New blog post from God Loves Women

mrsglw.wordpress.com/2024/09/12/j-john-and-his-12-disciples-or-the-fading-of-greg-downes-warm-glow/

Oh jeepers, I don’t know what to say.
Where do you start?

That article was brilliantly written about more horror in the evangelical community. Thank you for sharing it.